Do You Think People Cling On Too Much To Adrien's High Road Advice As A Reason To Salt On Him?

Do you think people cling on too much to Adrien's high road advice as a reason to salt on him?

Yes, especially when there are plenty of other reasons to salt him that have previously been ignored. But to that end, it DOES serve as the final straw for people after a SERIES of problems that had previously gone unaddressed.

Much like many aspects of the show, Adrien has displayed problematic behaviors that have been overlooked and waved off in the earlier seasons. This is likely or especially due to the way how in each and every incident, Adrien was narratively shown to be correct. In his stance. In his choices. In his behaviors. He was always right. It doesn't matter if he shouldn't be, because he is.

Now unless you're a hater or anti or salter or whatever negative name people tend to get for not liking a story as it's presented, readers and watchers tend to follow along with the narrative as it presents things and how it presents things. It's a common setup in any story. Protagonist Centered Morality, I feel framed best by Susan in the Discord series:

Susan: ...and then Jack chopped down the beanstalk, adding murder and ecological vandalism to the theft, enticement and trespass charges already mentioned, but he got away with it and lived happily ever after without so much as a guilty twinge about what he had done. Which proves that you can be excused anything if you're a hero, because no one asks inconvenient questions.

Pretty much this. Most people will follow what the narrative says because it's the narrative. If the narrative wants you to focus on Marinette being embarrassed, you're going to focus on how much she's cringe. And if the narrative wants you to view Adrien as a perfect sunshine boy who never does anything wrong, anything he does is going to be framed through that lens and it's difficult to break from that view and call out the times when he is wrong. Not unless he does something particularly severe.

It should be noted that outside of Chameleon, Adrien had, among other things: lied to his partner, caused someone to get akumatized and had his partner take the blame, was messing around during life-threatening and city-threatening situations, did nothing as Chloe tormented people right in front of him, DEFENDED Chloe after she tormented people right in front of him, bailed on an event with friends to set up a date with someone who said she had other plans and then got mad at HER for it, tried to flirt or confess in the middle of an active crisis which took necessary attention away from said crisis, caused himself AND his partner to get hit by akuma powers and needlessly be taken out of commission.

And yet people could mostly overlook these instances. They weren't his fault. Chloe is his friend. Marinette is worse. He's just a kid. He has a tragic backstory. So on and so forth. Easy to overlook. Easy to ignore in favor of the Sunshine Boy setup people were given and want to believe in.

But there were three major instances that really grabbed people's attention and stayed:

His attitude in Frozer. It probably wouldn't have been so bad except this rejection already happened in Glaciator, where he was supposed to have learned a lesson and accepted just being Ladybug's friend and now apparently didn't, despite it happening earlier that very season. Then in response, he decides to date Kagami as a rebound, drags Marinette with him on his date (without realizing how he's asking his friend to be a third wheel on a DATE) and focuses on her when he's supposed to be with Kagami, throws another tantrum in the middle of an akuma fight and refuses to work with his partner when the city is literally frozen, and requires Ladybug to apologize to him for hurting his feelings before he finally working with her. Again. But okay, he's a teenage boy in love. Not used to rejection and got his feelings hurt. Lovesquare is endgame so of course it'll work out anyway, so it's not like this bump in the road is really going to matter long term so we shouldn't hold it against him. Fine. Dumb, but fine. We've forgiven it in other shows and other poorly done teen romances, we can forgive it here.

His behavior in Syren in which he demanded to know secrets from people when the secrets were not theirs to tell him, and went so far as to attempt to blackmail his kwami (which was funny) and threaten to quit and abandon the Ring that the big bad is after while the city is flooded and people were trying to not drown (which was decidedly less humorous). But it was played for wholesome when Plagg reassured him and he got what he wanted by Fu revealed himself even if Adrien did nothing to actually show he earned it, so all's well that ends well, I guess? And people could justify it because "they're partners" and "part of a team" and "she should trust him" and "it's not fair he's the only one left out of the loop" and "he has a right to know" and just general "Fu is an idiot" (which is admittedly hard to argue). So people were disgruntled, but most were willing to overlook it.

His holier than thou lecture to Marinette in Maledictator over everyone being happy Chloe was leaving. When all Marinette was doing at the time was watching everyone else have fun. When Adrien specifically guilted Marinette and not any of the other actual partiers involved who were literally throwing a party over his friend leaving and probably should have warranted a lecture more than the girl just standing there. When the girl in question was also Chloe's main target and out of everyone had valid reasons to be happy that her bully won't be around to bully her anymore. When Adrien himself has historically been present to witness Marinette being targeted including twice he witnessed Chloe attempt to steal from Marinette, once he witnessed her try to blackmail Marinette, and numerous other times when she actively caused harm to Marinette and others. When Adrien then proceeded to sit in a corner and pout rather than do anything else or just leave if the party really bothered him. When Adrien, if he really cared so damn much, could have gone after Chloe himself! Or y'know...have stood up for Chloe earlier when she got upset in the first place. But fine, okay, Chloe is his childhood friend. So maybe he's just being biased and oblivious to the fact that his "friend" is a horrible person. But people can excuse and justify it in that they are friends and friends support each other, and the longer someone is friends with someone else, the harder it is to break from them. And that Marinette was probably just the target of his lecture because she was the one there in the moment (and the only one who would listen without arguing). And her calling Chloe useless was "mean" despite it being quite frankly the least of what she could have said about her in the moment (coughcough theft cough blackmail cough punished the entire school cough TRIED TO CRASH A TRAIN AND NEARLY KILLED HER AND HER PARENTS COUGH-FREAKINGCOUGH). Fine. Childhood friend means Adrien supports her in all her horrible and even deadly actions. Frustrating, but again, able to be explained and you can see where he's coming from.

These are all things that definitely got Adrien some side eye at best and some detractors at worst.

BUT if you really think about it, all of these examples are objectively worse than his lecture to Marinette in Chameleon. Not accepting being told "no" and continuing to chase a girl who isn't that in to him (while leading on another). Putting lives at risk over personal wants that could quite honestly wait until AFTER the crisis is over. Defending someone who is harmful and guilt tripping the victims. Compared to those, telling someone to leave a liar to their lying seems relatively minor.

So why this? Why here? Why is it Chameleon that has people saying enough is enough? Why is it this episode that is causing the sunshine boy to be so tarnished and the subject of salt in fan fiction?

Because this is the time when it couldn't be rationalized. There wasn't even a valid sensible canon-based reason for his stance. The arguments that Adrien "knew confronting her wouldn't work" or that he "handled her like paparazzi" or that he "knew Marinette previously failed when she tried" (even though he wasn't there and didn't know) or that he "didn't think anyone would believe him" don't come from canon. Those were fan arguments made after the fact to justify him after the base was broken and the outcry became too much to ignore.

This case didn't have any of the ties or rationales of the previous incidents. Adrien wasn't defending himself or his place in a partnership. He wasn't fighting for his love or his dream or an outcome he wanted and that we all knew was coming. He wasn't defending a friend like he did with Chloe—I mean, it's pretty evident he doesn't even really know or like Lila at this point, and for all intents and purposes, this is apparently only the second day he actually had any interaction with her. There was no notable reason Adrien really had for why he essentially chose to protect Lila over literally anyone else as she wasn't a friend and it wasn't in his interests to protect her from a consequence that wouldn't hurt her short term as much as it would likely harm everyone else long term.

And yet, he still defended her and her freedom to lie. Over Marinette. Over Ladybug. Over his friends. Over any sense of right and wrong he seems to have no problem throwing around when it comes to Marinette/Ladybug. Which seems like he targets her 9 times out of 10 compared to pretty much anyone else by this point. So it's little wonder then that people who didn't already hate the lovesquare because of the cringe factor from Marinette started to hate it for being incredibly unhealthy given that their relatively limited interactions tend to involve him lecturing her for failing to live up to his double standards that only seem to apply to her in any given situation.

This incident by itself doesn't seem like much, but when looked at as part of the series as a whole, it's when people couldn't keep overlooking this trend. Where he seems to admonish the wrong person. Where he acts like a mouthpiece rather than a person. Acts like a brat but is treated as though he has no accountability in the situation he causes. Where he is wrong but no one and certainly not the narrative acknowledges it (not until season five and two seasons later when it doesn't matter and he's still not the one facing consequences for it).

And it's not like he actually follows the stances he himself promotes. In Chameleon, canon presents him with this idealistic stance that Lila could change if given a chance, except he doesn't give her a chance. He doesn't push her to be a better person. He doesn't support her to be the better person he insisted to Marinette she could be. He also doesn't do anything or warn anyone when she keeps lying and actively harms the people he says he cares about. He doesn't do anything one way or the other other than some lackluster encouragement to stop lying and a warning that goes nowhere. It just further gives credit to the argument that Adrien either simply doesn't care about other people, or that he doesn't care for Marinette specifically. Neither is conducive to the lovesquare or the increasingly tarnished view of the "sunshine boy".

And it could have worked. Canonically and intrinsically to his character. His idealism and trust in the wrong person comes back to bite him. He learns and grows from it. Except that, much like with nearly everything he does in canon, Chameleon set it up that Adrien was the writers' mouthpiece and thus was not "wrong". I'll grant that they did have him admit it and apologize to Marinette for it two seasons later, but it is pretty evident that during Chameleon, they intended his lecture to be right, with no foreshadowing and no implication otherwise. And I'm fairly certain they only backtracked and had him do that much because of the amount of fan outrage over the episode.

So yes, I think his lecture in Chameleon was really a final straw since unlike Chloe, Adrien has NO relationship with Lila to justify his defense of her. Especially when the argument is in favor of letting her lie to the people he's supposed to care about. That combined with how jarring it was how most of the class just sided with Lila over the seat issue in the first place, and I think people were less inclined to just ignore the problems in the episode specifically and with the series as a whole as they were compared to the first and second seasons. Not just with Adrien, as we see that Alya also started getting more callout and salt since then as well as more retrospective scrutiny over her behavior in earlier seasons.

But yeah...Chameleon was where things seemed to take a 180, so it's bound to be the deciding episode and deciding incident that sticks out in people's minds with these characters. That's probably why it ends up the go-to for salt and complaints on the characters involved instead of any of the other incidents that would arguably warrant it more.

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Lying is NOT a Superpower

Obviously, there are a lot of things I hate about Lila as a character, if she can even be called that.

But, I want to talk about how others treated her.

"Chameleon" is Lila's second appearance in the series. In this one, Marinette wants to warn her friends that Lila is a liar and manipulative, and Adrien thinks they shouldn't. For some reason.

When he apologizes later, Marinette doesn't get mad. She reassures him that he did nothing wrong, even though he did.

Marinette tries several times throughout the series to convince people, mostly Alya, that Lila is lying, but Alya chalks it up to jealousy about Lila having a crush on Adrien.

When Lila's lies are revealed, Alya apologizes and berates herself for being gullible. Marinette reassures her by claiming lying is it's own superpower.

No, lying is not a superpower. Anyone can do it.

Lila's lies aren't even convincing if you think about them for a few seconds.

Lila claimed to know Prince Ali. Too bad they don't have a classmate who also knows Prince Ali and gets along with him really well. Too bad she wouldn't be able to write him a letter or call to confirm he knows Lila. (Rose)

She claimed Jagged Stone wrote a song about her and that she saved a kitten. Too bad they don't have multiple classmates who's mom worked with Jagged Stone and can confirm he hasn't had a cat in decades. Or at least know all of his songs well enough to realize none of them are about Lila. (Luka and Juleka)

She claimed Ladybug saved her life and that they're best friends. Too bad the journalist of the group didn't even think about that before posting it. Or decided to confirm with Ladybug first. (Alya)

She claimed she once saw a guy in India get his eye gouged out by a napkin. Too bad no one's smart enough to point out how that's impossible. (Max)

She claimed to get injured from Marinette pushing her down the stairs. Too bad no one took her to a doctor to get the injury treated.

Lying isn't a superpower. Most of Lila's lies come apart if you think about them.

Heck, Luka and Juleka get to hang out with Jagged later in the series, so the fact that they never found out Lila was lying is ridiculous.

The real superpower is how dumb everyone acts around Lila. Not one person is able to see through Lila's lies, even when they're obvious.

And if you have to dumb down your cast for the villain to succeed, they're not a good villain.

Worst of all, no one is being held accountable for it.

The message here is that you're supposed to just forgive people for blindly following a liar over you.

No, scratch that, you're supposed to just forgive people for accusing you of being a jealous liar when you try to warn them.

You certainly shouldn't point out how they blindly trusted her when they could've easily disproven her lies.

You shouldn't tell them how horrible and alone you've felt because everyone chose to believe the liar over you.

And it is a choice.

Lila states in "Chameleon" that no one thinks she's lying because they like what she has to say. That they don't want her to be lying.

Maybe not a conscious choice at first, but when Alya chooses to say Marinette's lying about Lila because of jealousy instead of believing her best friend, it became a conscious choice.

When your friends apologize and beg forgiveness for something they've done wrong, you're supposed to smile and assure them they did nothing wrong.

Your feelings here don't matter.

It's not their fault.

Lying is a superpower.

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reina-royale

1 year ago

Wow, thanks! I genuinely appreciate the reply.

As for Kim's flaws being potential, I actually do agree with you. Those flaws could have led to interesting character development. The problem is that they didn't.

Kim never really stops being controlling. She never stops being jealous. And she only really starts treating Ron as a partner better after they start dating.

I would have loved it if those flaws had led to Kim growing and developing as a character, but they didn't. From the beginning, Kim was supposed to be perfect, so they rarely acknowledged her flaws, and didn't have her grow and learn from them.

This was, in part, caused by the show having an episodic nature; each episode stood alone and you didn't need to watch previous ones to understand the plot. It was detrimental to character development.

And, while I doubt the creators were misogynists, I'm not surprised that two grown men had trouble writing teenaged girls, as that problem still persists to this day.

I agree, Kim's flaws were potential. Unfortunately, they didn't actually lead to anything, and I feel like it's perfectly valid to complain about that.

But you managed to articulate my main point about Ron better than I could have, and I do enjoy you taking the time to interact with my posts! It means a lot to me, even if we don't agree.

You have a lot of gripes about Kim as a character? What about Ron though? Do you think they handled his character better then the rest?

Oh, good question! Yes, and no.

No because Ron is portrayed as a loser and a freak, the butt of many jokes within the series.

And so many people, females included, find themselves relating to Ron more than Kim, so it's a little bit insulting that the character most like them was the "loser" of the show.

And yes, because Ron actually got more character development than Kim.

And, while Ron has been known to be selfish at times, it doesn't usually cause harm to others.

And Kim called him out for it.

Whenever Ron is behaving badly, neither Kim nor the narrative will hesitate to call him out on it.

Most often, Ron puts Kim's interests before his own. And he certainly treats Kim better than she treats him.

So, Ron is treated as a joke, and often puts Kim's needs ahead of his own. When he behaves badly, he is called out on it. And for this reason, I think he was handled both better and worse than Kim

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reina-royale

1 year ago

Thoughts on "Motor Ed"

The episode, not the character.

Well, I do like that it dealt with disability. And Kim's behavior is actually reminiscent of how many people in the real world treat someone with an obvious disability.

I love that Ron treated Felix like a normal person from the beginning.

And I like that Felix's mom was patient with Kim being uncomfortable with Felix's chair.

(Because Kim's not discriminatory, she has just never been near someone with a physical disability before and has no idea what's considered acceptable behavior.)

However, I do have one complaint:

For all the times Ron acts like Felix is a normal person and even tells Kim to treat him like a normal person, Felix doesn't.

At no point is Felix anything other than...polite.

Sure, Kim's not trying to be mean, but micro aggressions are typically done by people who don't have harmful intentions.

(Though Felix isn't aware of most of them, so I will give some leeway here.)

We have Ron advocating for Kim to treat Felix like a normal person, but we never have Felix advocating for that himself.

(He's also not really advocating, he's just treating Felix like a normal person and telling Kim she's too hung up on the chair.)

Felix is never his own advocate when it comes to how he's treated.

And having a disabled person in a show is great, but it's even better when they advocate for themselves.

Again, I know that Kim's not trying to be mean, but she is treating Felix differently because of his disability. And Felix should be the one calling her out on it, not Ron.

(Though he's new, so it's possible he thinks she treats everyone that way, though it's really unlikely.)

I know it's not intended to be offensive, and I wouldn't say I'm offended, but I do think disabled characters should be allowed to advocate for themselves.

Still, I do like this episode, and I wish we had gotten to see more of Felix in the series.

Bonus: A lot of people in wheelchairs are able to stand or walk without it for a bit. Does anyone think Felix is able to do that?

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reina-royale

1 year ago

Bonnie Deserved to Walk at Graduation

Okay, I'm going to say it: as horrible as Bonnie was throughout the series, she didn't deserve that kind of humiliation at graduation.

First of all, Barkin should know how to contact Bonnie, or her mother, to let them know before the ceremony that Bonnie wouldn't be graduating.

Second of all, the one test that Bonnie missed should not be weighted enough to cause Bonnie to not graduate. Especially when she was apparently a Salutatorian. (Second highest GPA in the class, she tied with Kim for the title.) At worst, she loses the Salutatorian title, but not flunk completely.

Third of all, the reason nothing happens in the last week of school is because the grade books are closed, and no assignment given after that point is actually counted towards their grade. So even though Bonnie missed that pop quiz, it shouldn't have mattered anyways.

Unless Barkin was breaking the rules, which wouldn't surprise me.

So, it seems the only reason Bonnie was told at the ceremony that she wouldn't be graduating is because Barkin decided he wanted to publicly humiliate Bonnie.

And a 40+ year old adult wanting to humiliate a barely legal former student of his seems wrong.

(Note: I don't think there was anything sexual behind his motivation for humiliating Bonnie, but it still seems wrong.)

Especially when the humiliation seems disproportionate to any slight she might have done to "deserve" it.

For all Bonnie's done to embarrass and antagonize Kim and Ron, she never goes public with it.

The closest we get is in "Hidden Talent" when she shows a video of Kim failing to hit the high notes while singing to hurt Kim's confidence, but Kim and Ron are the only ones around at the time to see the video. It doesn't count as "public humiliation".

So it doesn't seem right to humiliate her in such a way when she never stooped to that level herself.

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reina-royale

1 year ago

Do you really think all of ML's problems would be fixed if Adrien never existed?

Good heavens, no.

Adrien isn't the problem. He's just a symptom of a much larger issue. That issue being laziness and poor writing that comes in the form of "tell, don't show", plot threads that go nowhere, and lack of character development or plot progression that leads to a setup of "Status Quo Is God". Removing Adrien wouldn't fix all of that. Heck, it wouldn't fix any of that.

I can't fault the writers for replacing Felix with Adrien. Even if I and others could write out a plot with Felix, that's not to say everyone could or that the writers could. It could very well be that Felix as he was in the PV simply didn't work for the setup they had in mind.

...the issue here is that the setup they had in mind seems to require stagnancy. Where Hawk Moth attacks without winning and the heroes fight off the akumas without really trying to track him as the source and the two leads chase each other around in circles without anyone making any headway in either of these battles. Marinette wants to date Adrien. Chat wants to date Ladybug. It's why all her plans to ask him out fail while his attempts to express his feelings aren't taken seriously. And there is no forward movement, whether in their arc or in the fight against Hawk Moth. There wasn't even build or lead up to the two falling in love. They just started out episode one with crushes on each other and remained having crushes on each other until arguably season 5.

But no good story is stagnant. In this setup, characters need to do things and there needs to be a feeling of forward momentum.

Break it down this way: What is Adrien's problem? What is his goal? What is the obstacle to his goal?

Yes, we could say Adrien's dad being a supervillain and a neglectful jerk is Adrien's main problem, but it's not the problem Adrien is actually focused on in the show. Instead, if we could say Adrien has a problem, it would be that he wants to date Ladybug. And his goal is to date Ladybug. And the source of the problem and obstacle to his goal is...Ladybug.

So his problem, his goal, and the obstacle are all the same thing. This ultimately seems to make his problems Ladybug’s fault then because the problem would be solved if she gives in to his wants rather than by any real effort on his part.

Adrien as he is in the show doesn't do anything. And he doesn't need to do anything because he is at his base a character that things are done for. He doesn't have a goal or direction or drive. He just comes out to deal with akumas as needed, flirt with Ladybug when he can, and then be sad because his life is so hard when he doesn't get what he wants. We don't see him doing anything else. We don't see him making friends. We don't see him engaging in school. We don't even really see how he interacts with the classmates he only recently met. Things happen around him, but he is not a driving force in anything in the show.

But Felix in the PV is a very driving character. He had a problem: he's cursed. What does he need to break the curse? A kiss from Ladybug. What are the obstacles to his goal: Ladybug refusing to kiss him and Hawk Moth trying to kill her. How does he get that kiss? By flirting with her and trying to earn her affections while protecting her and making sure she doesn't DIE against an akuma before he gets that special curse-breaking kiss.

It's the start of Felix's journey. His goal and the various obstacles to that goal that make his story interesting and his growth possible. As such, I see him as a character who would progress in his attempts to obtain his goal as well as one who would progress the storyline...which is also accurate of 3D Felix since that's kind of what he's done more in his relatively few appearances than the series has in 5 seasons.

Adrien didn't have to have Felix's personality. He didn't have to have the same goals or level of drive. But he could still have had things where he grows and helps to push the plot forward.

Adrien...

...just started school. He has no friends, knows no one, and is trying to learn the ins and outs of public education. How is he doing in the different setting with teachers instead of tutors? How is he trying to get along with his classmates? Does he experience bullying? Does anyone NOT like him? What is he going through as a new student who had been homeschooled all his life?

...is friends with Chloe. What's it like learning his "only friend" is a bully? How do people respond to this? Does anyone (besides Marinette) fear him or avoid him because if he's friends with Chloe, he must be just like her?

...is a superhero. He could have been spending time learning the history of the ring and trying to develop his powers. Trying to get stronger? Trying to get to know Plagg? What is he experiencing as a highly known model who is also a superhero and having to juggle those dual identities?

...has a dead mom who died of a "mysterious illness". Given that this loss supposedly occurred about a year prior, he could still be mourning her. Maybe trying to learn what happened to her.

...has a neglectful father. How is he trying to interact with his dad? How does he feel about his dad not being around? What is he doing to try to resolve this?

...has a supervillain father. Like, I cannot stress this enough! His dad is a SUPERVILLAIN! His dad is THE SUPERVILLAIN THEY ARE FIGHTING! People were predicting him finding out and joining Gabriel to try and revive his mom! People were living for the eventual heartbreak of when Adrien finds out the truth! Entire AUs, fan arts, and fanfics were born of this very idea! Going into the drama and struggle Adrien would be experiencing being caught between the "right thing" and the girl he loves and his duty vs his father and his mother and his family. HOW CAN THEY JUST IGNORE THIS?!

But we don't get any of that. Instead, we get Adrien...

...just acclimated with no issues in school and automatically friends with everyone. Good for him, I guess. Wish it was that easy for the rest of us.

...doing little besides occasional comments to Chloe as she is completely horrible for five seasons including Chloe stealing from classmates, getting the entire school punished for something she did, stealing a Miraculous, trying to crash a train, and betraying the city to Hawk Moth. But it takes him learning about something she did to Marinette a year ago for him to finally decide enough is enough and drop her as a friend.

...only goes out to deal with akumas as they come but does nothing to try and figure out his powers and history, get stronger, or try to track Hawk Moth.

...just moves on from dead mom. No relevance here aside from wanting to see a movie she was in or making a passing comment about how she got sick. No attempt to find out what happened to her. No questioning what she may have wanted for him.

...is just sad about his neglectful father neglecting him but seems to get over it rather quickly.

...never learns his father is a supervillain. Okay, I take it back. He learns twice and those timelines are erased with no real repercussions other than trauma for Marinette, so it really doesn't feel like they count. The pieces are all there, though! He knows his dad has the grimoire but never questions him about it! Never asks his dad what the deal was with Tibet! No question about how mom died or what is going on with Nathalie or what he's doing with a hidden mechanism in mom's portrait.

Adrien has potential. He has plot threads and aspects that could be used and goals he could have. But the writing does nothing with him, so while he has a number of things he COULD do to move forward and progress as a character or for the plot, nothing comes of it.

And that all boils down to a problem with the writing.

Adrien was chosen over Felix as an "easier" option to keep the story at a standstill so they could drag it out for as long as needed. That doesn't mean it should have been. There were so many paths that could have been taken, but Adrien was given the personality of a wet noodle, so he acts on none of them because that was what the writers wanted out of his character.

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reina-royale

1 year ago

I found the episode "Showdown at the Crooked D" kinda insulting towards Ron(excluding the final scene) it literally would be impossible for Kims cousin to know every detail about Kims missions, including the times Rufus was vital, but know nothing about Ron. I know it's supposed to be for "comedic purposes" but that gag was so overdone by then(late s3) as you said in some of your posts, Ron has stepped up so much since the first episode, she should've been treated with more respect. It also kinda made Kim look bad, not defending him or recounting atleast one of the missions where he came through.

First, "Showdown at The Crooked D" was late season 2, not late season 3.

Second, I agree with all of it.

There's no reason for Joss to know all about Kim, Rufus, and Wade, but know nothing about Ron.

(She even knows about the Centurion Project, which was a top-secret project she reasonably shouldn't have known about.)

Except, of course, that the narrative likes to make jokes at Ron's expense.

And when I say Kim doesn't appreciate or respect Ron on the team, it's not just because of how she treats him in their everyday life, it's also because of situations like this.

Kim won't acknowledge Ron's contributions to the team.

When someone praises Kim as a hero, she never even tries to give Ron credit for his part in their success.

(And when Joss praised Ron as a hero, it was because he faces his fears to be there for Kim, not because she recognized his skills. Not a bad reason to admire someone, but still...)

Kim acknowledged his importance once in "Sink or Swim", which Officer Hobble didn't believe at first. She never does it again.

(Also, she follows this up by telling Ron he's not going to be allowed to lead a mission anyways.)

Kim's the one getting praise, getting people to owe her favors, getting recognition, and Ron's not.

And, though Kim will probably say she's not doing it for the fame and recognition, it hardly seems fair to not allow Ron to have any.

(Also, it's easy to say you're not doing it for fame and recognition when you're the one getting it.)

The point is, even ignoring her mistreatment of him as a best friend, she fails to acknowledge or recognize his contributions to the team as a hero, and he deserves better.

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