You Have A Lot Of Gripes About Kim As A Character? What About Ron Though? Do You Think They Handled His

I'm not the first to mention this, but one bit that I thought was really clever in Steven Universe is the ways in which the show subtly justifies the cartoonism of the principle cast always wearing the same outfit for ease-of-animation purposes. The gems are a gimme in that they're all hardlight-projections, and even before that's solidified as a plot point they're otherworldly and superheroic enough that you don't really think to question it. But Steven canonically just owns hundreds and hundreds of those star shirts, which are leftover merchandise from his father's fizzled-out career as a rock star. Into which you can read a whole bunch of other stuff if you really want to, right? And I do want to. It's reflective of Greg's misplaced optimism that he got hundreds of those made in the first place, and it's a benign but visible example of how Steven's life is shaped by the knock-on effects of decisions his parents made before he was even alive. He's got his mother's superpowers and he's wearing his father's shirts.

The only moment of the whole show where Kim looks distressful (almost about to cry) in the whole show is when she thinks Ron died in the Christmas episode.

when she tells Ron she loves her in Clean state and when she confesses to Ron she is scared too. Those are amazing emotional moments that strength Kim and Ron’s relationship, but again they are so few and far in-between.

Again, all of this was because Kim was never allowed to ponder about her feelings, or have flaws nor be vulnerable

And I think this is part of the reason why some people in the fandom (I’ve seen a few, even though I disagree with them I get where they are coming from) dislike Kim and tend to pair up Ron with almost any other character (Tara, Bonnie, Yori or sometimes even Shego ) instead of Kim.

Kim is almost a non-character in the fandom, even on Kigo stories (Once I tried giving Kigo a chance, but I disliked almost everything about it, finding about the age-gap didn’t help) Kim is a non-character only being there to act as a prop towards Shego.

In the majority of the stories (even in KimRon stories) Kim acts more like a self-insert or as a prop to either Ron or Shego. 4_5

Yeah, Kim actually having realistic, relatable emotions is so rare in the show, it makes it feel like she's not even a character in her own show.

This is probably why she often feels like a non-character in fanfiction - she was never given enough emotional depth in the show to use in fanfiction.

She definitely had flaws, but they were so rarely acknowledged, and even more rarely corrected.

The only person to regularly acknowledge Kim's flaws is Ron, but he's usually not taken seriously. So Kim never feels a need to try and improve herself.

I know I prefer to ship Ron with other people because Tara and Yori were nice to him when Kim wasn't, and Bonnie was unequivocally supportive when they were dating in "Ron Millionaire" and really nice and kind to him in "Homecoming Upset" when she was trying to date him. Tara and Yori treated Ron better than Kim did at times, and Bonnie definitely had the potential for that kind of relationship with Ron.

I don't ship Ron with Shego for the same reason I don't ship Kim with Shego - the age difference makes me uncomfortable. It's pedophilia, even if nothing happens until Ron or Kim is eighteen.

It has come to my attention that a lot of people are probably under the impression that I hate Kim since I criticize her behavior a lot.

This is not true.

I do believe that Kim is selfish and very flawed.

And I'm frustrated that her flaws are often overlooked or ignored or, in the rare instances where her harmful actions are actually acknowledged, downplayed, easily forgiven, and not changed.

But this is not because I hate Kim.

This is because I love Kim, or at least I used to, and wish she had gotten better character development.

Kim is the main character. Heck, Kim is the titular character. Kim is the focus of the show.

But Ron is the relatable character. Ron is the one who gets the most development. Ron got so much development that, in the fourth season, they actually had him take a back seat on some missions to a literal baby because they made Ron too good to keep being Kim's sidekick.

(Not sure if that was their thought process or intention, but it happened.)

Overall, Kim remains a static character. What little character development she gets does not compare to Ron. At all.

Now, obviously I love Ron, too.

But Kim also should have gotten character development. And every time the creators had a chance for it, they decided against it.

I would honestly love Kim a lot more if they had given her the same level of character development they gave Ron.

I mean, the fans deserve that, at least.

Constantly Torn Between...

Not wanting to reveal spoilers for my AU series and wanting people to ask about it so I can answer questions.

Wanting to make my AU a comic and knowing I don't have the time, skill, or energy to make it look like I want.

Wanting to read fanfiction for inspiration and feeling bad for not coming up with completely original ideas.

Wanting people to enjoy my content and not wanting to care about the approval of others.

I can't change the names and sell my fanfic because it was written under the premise that people already have the requisite background knowledge to enjoy it.

They already know who everyone is and how they're all connected to each other, what the plot is, what all the locations are, etc.

If I changed the names and tried to sell it, I'd have to also write the backstory.

The summary of my first story is this:

I wish I could say that my breakup with Kim was sudden. Or that it was entirely my fault. Or that it was completely my decision, un-influenced by anything or anyone else. But none of that is true. But like all good stories, we start at the beginning…

Which gets people interested because they know who Kim and Ron are and that they dated, and want to know what caused them to breakup.

However, if I changed the names:

I wish I could say that my breakup with Katie was sudden. Or that it was entirely my fault. Or that it was completely my decision, un-influenced by anything or anyone else. But none of that is true. But like all good stories, we start at the beginning…

You get a terrible romance with a lot of drama that no one wants to read, due in no small part to them not knowing who these characters are and why they should care about their breakup.

Even if your fanfic is an AU like mine, it's still entwined with canon.

And simply changing the names wouldn't be enough to fix that.

And, of course, the insistence on monetizing every hobby someone has is toxic, too.

Hobbies are meant to be fun. Not work.

It really is crazy how if you mention you write fanfiction with people outside fandom, they're always like "you should change the names and try to sell it." It misses the point (fun), but more importantly to me, I get slightly (and I know irrationally) insulted on a craft level. Excuse me, my fanfic is entwined with the canon, thank you very much. I wish sometimes less entwined. You wouldn't believe the stupid bullshit some of my fics have to include because of canon.

Reblogging from myself to add an update: Upon recent rewatch, Kim offers to help Bonnie, Bonnie doesn't even ask, certainly doesn't force her to.

Then Kim leaves on a mission with Wade, forcing Ron to set up the Meet the Queen event to find Bonnie a new boyfriend, a job he didn't want at all, which leaves me with all kinds of conflicted feelings.

When the team decides to head to Italy, Bonnie is upset at feeling abandoned, so Ron offers to have her come to Venice with them.

So, Kim offers to help, and then immediately abandons the job, forcing Ron to pick up the slack. Not happy about that.

Also, I don't blame her for harshly rejecting Larry since he was picking his ear when he approached her.

Nor do I blame her for being so upset that Brick dumped her, since he had apparently promised that he'd be back for homecoming.

I do blame her for moving in on someone else's boyfriend. Regardless of my feelings on Ron/Bonnie as a pairing, moving in on Ron when he was already dating Kim was uncool.

What are your thoughts on Bonnie cheating to become the homecoming queen and the fact that she tried to steal Ron from Kim, going so far as to kissing him. Not to mention the audacity of her asking Kim to find her a new boyfriend not caring if she’s bothering her or not.

That was definitely a horrible thing to do. I don't justify that, nor do I condone it. This is one thing I do not excuse. I'm not overly fond of Kim, and I clearly prefer Bonnie, but I do agree that I'm on Kim's side on this one.

That being said, I don't actually recall Bonnie asking Kim to help her find a new boyfriend, I think Kim just did that on her own.

Actually, Ron was the one to set up the "Meet the Queen" event to find Bonnie a new boyfriend.

But, it has been a while since I saw that episode in full, so I could be misremembering things.

Don't you think you are missing the point? Because of how often Ron is overlooked whenever he gets any ounce of attention, it usually goes to his head. I think the chapter focused on this flaw not to make the conflict as one-sided on kim's end. Ron was being a bit patrionizing through the episode. So, Ron acknowladging it was the Kim factor, despite being Ron who defeated the villain showcase his character growth and is a sign of humilty and modesty.

Is one of my favorite moments of his character, I like how supportive and kind he is to Kim. Maybe what was missing was Kim acknowladging Ron more often? how would you've liked to see the episode/ending play out? What would you change?

I wouldn't say I'm missing the point. I'd say I'm saying it's stupid. Huge difference.

Furthermore, as I have rewatched the series recently, I can confidently say that, attention does not, actually, go to Ron's head when he receives it.

(And even if it did, that's not an excuse to constantly beat on the guy's self-esteem when even the anon asking this question admits he's constantly over looked.)

At this point in time, "Ron Millionaire" hasn't happened yet, so Kim's only examples would be "Bueno Nacho", "The New Ron", and "Two to Tutor", and in none of those did Ron get a big head.

(But if you're someone who's threatened by other people being successful and confident, it's the same thing.)

In "Bueno Nacho", Ron invented the Naco and got the job as the boss because of it. Being good at his job and actually enjoying it doesn't mean it went to his head, nor was asking Kim to do the job she originally signed them up for.

In "The New Ron", Ron started caring about fashion and hair-care, but this still doesn't mean he had an ego problem.

In "Two to Tutor", Ron was successful, popular, and confident because of his baking skills, and that still doesn't mean he had an ego problem.

Know why? Because he was enjoying the positive attention without putting down others or making fun of them.

Was Ron a little rude in this episode? Yes. But to say it's a recurring problem when it provably isn't shows more about Kim than Ron.

Namely that, to Kim, it doesn't matter if Ron actually has an ego problem or is just confident, it's unacceptable for Ron to be anything but her insecure, bumbling sidekick.

(Seriously, Kim is allowed to say she can do anything, but Ron isn't allowed to say he's good at one thing? How is that a fair and equal relationship?)

It's also worth mentioning that, yes, Ron is provably important to Kim's success, because she has failed any mission she tries to do alone.

Ron's already humble and modest, to the point of insecurity and self-deprecation. He really didn't need to be told, again, that he's nothing special.

How would I have liked this to go? Easy:

It starts out pretty much the same, but, at some point, Kim is watching feeds of her missions and sees, from an outside perspective, how important Ron actually is to her success.

*cue dawning look of realization*

At the end, after Gemini is defeated, we get an exchange like this:

Kim: "I was so upset about this whole Ron-factor thing at first, but, after watching some surveillance videos, I realized they're right."

Ron and Rufus: "Huh?!"

Kim: "I'm really good at the action stuff, but your quick-thinking and resourcefulness has been more helpful than I realized. I'm sorry I never acknowledged that before."

Ron: "Thanks, KP. That means a lot. Sorry I was kind of rude earlier. Friends?"

Kim: "The best."

*hug*

Ron: "But, for the record, it's not you or me, it's us. We're a team. It's not about a Kim Factor or a Ron Factor, it's us together that makes it work."

Dr. Director: "Hmm...perhaps we should spend time studying both of you."

They felt so odd and even out of character for Kim at that point, everything about the movie felt very season one-isn, Kim’s character felt off and even a little disrespectful:

Kim: “Ron is not boyfriend material, he is Ron ”

Bonnie: “you could end up with the president of the Chess club or worse” (as Ron enters the scene)

There are so many scenes where Ron is able to ponder about his feelings about Kim, there are many scenes where he does something that shows he loves her and in general seems to prioritize her happiness.

( little scenes like when he buys her a jacket, every time he is supportive and tells her she can do anything, that she is beautiful, when she gives her the credit for saving the day in the Ron factor episode, we have whole scenes where Ron’s character evaluated the way he feels about her and how important she is to him.)

I think is amazing how the cartoon portrays Ron as an introspective, open and emotionally available person (very rare in a boy character during that time, is amazing and part of the whole subversion of tropes the show had going on).

This is part of the reason what made me love Ron’s character and Kim and Ron’s relationship

But we almost didn’t get any of that with Kim, we barely ever saw how she felt about anything, she was never allowed to be as open and vulnerable about her feelings as Ron was. 3_5

Truthfully, even today, it can be hard to find a teenage guy character who is so open about his feelings.

So I do love that about Ron.

And I hate that Kim was never allowed that same vulnerability. She was only shown to have fears or insecurities a few times; fighting the Lorwardians in "Graduation", a newly discovered fear of giant bugs in "Roachie", and anything involving Josh Mankey.

And, even though she could experience fear and insecurities, it never made her sympathetic towards any of Ron's.

There where shows back then where the teen male protagonist was allowed to be emotional and vulnerable, so why isn't a teen female protagonist allowed the same?

Do you think people cling on too much to Adrien's high road advice as a reason to salt on him?

Yes, especially when there are plenty of other reasons to salt him that have previously been ignored. But to that end, it DOES serve as the final straw for people after a SERIES of problems that had previously gone unaddressed.

Much like many aspects of the show, Adrien has displayed problematic behaviors that have been overlooked and waved off in the earlier seasons. This is likely or especially due to the way how in each and every incident, Adrien was narratively shown to be correct. In his stance. In his choices. In his behaviors. He was always right. It doesn't matter if he shouldn't be, because he is.

Now unless you're a hater or anti or salter or whatever negative name people tend to get for not liking a story as it's presented, readers and watchers tend to follow along with the narrative as it presents things and how it presents things. It's a common setup in any story. Protagonist Centered Morality, I feel framed best by Susan in the Discord series:

Susan: ...and then Jack chopped down the beanstalk, adding murder and ecological vandalism to the theft, enticement and trespass charges already mentioned, but he got away with it and lived happily ever after without so much as a guilty twinge about what he had done. Which proves that you can be excused anything if you're a hero, because no one asks inconvenient questions.

Pretty much this. Most people will follow what the narrative says because it's the narrative. If the narrative wants you to focus on Marinette being embarrassed, you're going to focus on how much she's cringe. And if the narrative wants you to view Adrien as a perfect sunshine boy who never does anything wrong, anything he does is going to be framed through that lens and it's difficult to break from that view and call out the times when he is wrong. Not unless he does something particularly severe.

It should be noted that outside of Chameleon, Adrien had, among other things: lied to his partner, caused someone to get akumatized and had his partner take the blame, was messing around during life-threatening and city-threatening situations, did nothing as Chloe tormented people right in front of him, DEFENDED Chloe after she tormented people right in front of him, bailed on an event with friends to set up a date with someone who said she had other plans and then got mad at HER for it, tried to flirt or confess in the middle of an active crisis which took necessary attention away from said crisis, caused himself AND his partner to get hit by akuma powers and needlessly be taken out of commission.

And yet people could mostly overlook these instances. They weren't his fault. Chloe is his friend. Marinette is worse. He's just a kid. He has a tragic backstory. So on and so forth. Easy to overlook. Easy to ignore in favor of the Sunshine Boy setup people were given and want to believe in.

But there were three major instances that really grabbed people's attention and stayed:

His attitude in Frozer. It probably wouldn't have been so bad except this rejection already happened in Glaciator, where he was supposed to have learned a lesson and accepted just being Ladybug's friend and now apparently didn't, despite it happening earlier that very season. Then in response, he decides to date Kagami as a rebound, drags Marinette with him on his date (without realizing how he's asking his friend to be a third wheel on a DATE) and focuses on her when he's supposed to be with Kagami, throws another tantrum in the middle of an akuma fight and refuses to work with his partner when the city is literally frozen, and requires Ladybug to apologize to him for hurting his feelings before he finally working with her. Again. But okay, he's a teenage boy in love. Not used to rejection and got his feelings hurt. Lovesquare is endgame so of course it'll work out anyway, so it's not like this bump in the road is really going to matter long term so we shouldn't hold it against him. Fine. Dumb, but fine. We've forgiven it in other shows and other poorly done teen romances, we can forgive it here.

His behavior in Syren in which he demanded to know secrets from people when the secrets were not theirs to tell him, and went so far as to attempt to blackmail his kwami (which was funny) and threaten to quit and abandon the Ring that the big bad is after while the city is flooded and people were trying to not drown (which was decidedly less humorous). But it was played for wholesome when Plagg reassured him and he got what he wanted by Fu revealed himself even if Adrien did nothing to actually show he earned it, so all's well that ends well, I guess? And people could justify it because "they're partners" and "part of a team" and "she should trust him" and "it's not fair he's the only one left out of the loop" and "he has a right to know" and just general "Fu is an idiot" (which is admittedly hard to argue). So people were disgruntled, but most were willing to overlook it.

His holier than thou lecture to Marinette in Maledictator over everyone being happy Chloe was leaving. When all Marinette was doing at the time was watching everyone else have fun. When Adrien specifically guilted Marinette and not any of the other actual partiers involved who were literally throwing a party over his friend leaving and probably should have warranted a lecture more than the girl just standing there. When the girl in question was also Chloe's main target and out of everyone had valid reasons to be happy that her bully won't be around to bully her anymore. When Adrien himself has historically been present to witness Marinette being targeted including twice he witnessed Chloe attempt to steal from Marinette, once he witnessed her try to blackmail Marinette, and numerous other times when she actively caused harm to Marinette and others. When Adrien then proceeded to sit in a corner and pout rather than do anything else or just leave if the party really bothered him. When Adrien, if he really cared so damn much, could have gone after Chloe himself! Or y'know...have stood up for Chloe earlier when she got upset in the first place. But fine, okay, Chloe is his childhood friend. So maybe he's just being biased and oblivious to the fact that his "friend" is a horrible person. But people can excuse and justify it in that they are friends and friends support each other, and the longer someone is friends with someone else, the harder it is to break from them. And that Marinette was probably just the target of his lecture because she was the one there in the moment (and the only one who would listen without arguing). And her calling Chloe useless was "mean" despite it being quite frankly the least of what she could have said about her in the moment (coughcough theft cough blackmail cough punished the entire school cough TRIED TO CRASH A TRAIN AND NEARLY KILLED HER AND HER PARENTS COUGH-FREAKINGCOUGH). Fine. Childhood friend means Adrien supports her in all her horrible and even deadly actions. Frustrating, but again, able to be explained and you can see where he's coming from.

These are all things that definitely got Adrien some side eye at best and some detractors at worst.

BUT if you really think about it, all of these examples are objectively worse than his lecture to Marinette in Chameleon. Not accepting being told "no" and continuing to chase a girl who isn't that in to him (while leading on another). Putting lives at risk over personal wants that could quite honestly wait until AFTER the crisis is over. Defending someone who is harmful and guilt tripping the victims. Compared to those, telling someone to leave a liar to their lying seems relatively minor.

So why this? Why here? Why is it Chameleon that has people saying enough is enough? Why is it this episode that is causing the sunshine boy to be so tarnished and the subject of salt in fan fiction?

Because this is the time when it couldn't be rationalized. There wasn't even a valid sensible canon-based reason for his stance. The arguments that Adrien "knew confronting her wouldn't work" or that he "handled her like paparazzi" or that he "knew Marinette previously failed when she tried" (even though he wasn't there and didn't know) or that he "didn't think anyone would believe him" don't come from canon. Those were fan arguments made after the fact to justify him after the base was broken and the outcry became too much to ignore.

This case didn't have any of the ties or rationales of the previous incidents. Adrien wasn't defending himself or his place in a partnership. He wasn't fighting for his love or his dream or an outcome he wanted and that we all knew was coming. He wasn't defending a friend like he did with Chloe—I mean, it's pretty evident he doesn't even really know or like Lila at this point, and for all intents and purposes, this is apparently only the second day he actually had any interaction with her. There was no notable reason Adrien really had for why he essentially chose to protect Lila over literally anyone else as she wasn't a friend and it wasn't in his interests to protect her from a consequence that wouldn't hurt her short term as much as it would likely harm everyone else long term.

And yet, he still defended her and her freedom to lie. Over Marinette. Over Ladybug. Over his friends. Over any sense of right and wrong he seems to have no problem throwing around when it comes to Marinette/Ladybug. Which seems like he targets her 9 times out of 10 compared to pretty much anyone else by this point. So it's little wonder then that people who didn't already hate the lovesquare because of the cringe factor from Marinette started to hate it for being incredibly unhealthy given that their relatively limited interactions tend to involve him lecturing her for failing to live up to his double standards that only seem to apply to her in any given situation.

This incident by itself doesn't seem like much, but when looked at as part of the series as a whole, it's when people couldn't keep overlooking this trend. Where he seems to admonish the wrong person. Where he acts like a mouthpiece rather than a person. Acts like a brat but is treated as though he has no accountability in the situation he causes. Where he is wrong but no one and certainly not the narrative acknowledges it (not until season five and two seasons later when it doesn't matter and he's still not the one facing consequences for it).

And it's not like he actually follows the stances he himself promotes. In Chameleon, canon presents him with this idealistic stance that Lila could change if given a chance, except he doesn't give her a chance. He doesn't push her to be a better person. He doesn't support her to be the better person he insisted to Marinette she could be. He also doesn't do anything or warn anyone when she keeps lying and actively harms the people he says he cares about. He doesn't do anything one way or the other other than some lackluster encouragement to stop lying and a warning that goes nowhere. It just further gives credit to the argument that Adrien either simply doesn't care about other people, or that he doesn't care for Marinette specifically. Neither is conducive to the lovesquare or the increasingly tarnished view of the "sunshine boy".

And it could have worked. Canonically and intrinsically to his character. His idealism and trust in the wrong person comes back to bite him. He learns and grows from it. Except that, much like with nearly everything he does in canon, Chameleon set it up that Adrien was the writers' mouthpiece and thus was not "wrong". I'll grant that they did have him admit it and apologize to Marinette for it two seasons later, but it is pretty evident that during Chameleon, they intended his lecture to be right, with no foreshadowing and no implication otherwise. And I'm fairly certain they only backtracked and had him do that much because of the amount of fan outrage over the episode.

So yes, I think his lecture in Chameleon was really a final straw since unlike Chloe, Adrien has NO relationship with Lila to justify his defense of her. Especially when the argument is in favor of letting her lie to the people he's supposed to care about. That combined with how jarring it was how most of the class just sided with Lila over the seat issue in the first place, and I think people were less inclined to just ignore the problems in the episode specifically and with the series as a whole as they were compared to the first and second seasons. Not just with Adrien, as we see that Alya also started getting more callout and salt since then as well as more retrospective scrutiny over her behavior in earlier seasons.

But yeah...Chameleon was where things seemed to take a 180, so it's bound to be the deciding episode and deciding incident that sticks out in people's minds with these characters. That's probably why it ends up the go-to for salt and complaints on the characters involved instead of any of the other incidents that would arguably warrant it more.

Is surprising how much of the humor was based at Ron’s expense, specially when some of his behaviors like having hyperfixation over things he liked (Bueno nacho, wrestling) or scenes where he had to deals with issues such as dealing with fear, phobias and/or anxiety were oftentimes downplayed of painted in a way to make him look “funny”, “silly” or “dumb”.

Ron more often than not read as being neurodivergent and gender non conforming.

Why make fun of him using the things that could potentially make him relatable towards the audience?

I also agree with you about Kim feeling too perfect at times.

An argument I’ve heard people make was that Ron stole Kim’s spotlight at the end of the show. In that it was supposed to be “The Kim possible show, not Ron stoppable” Do you think this argument has any merit?

Sometimes I wish Ron as a character was convinced as a girl instead of a boy, to show girls could be silly, weird and awkward and still manage be useful in their own ways. (Similar to Luz from the owl house or Lilo from Lilo and Stitch).

This is part of the reason why despite being a girl, I always liked him and related to him more than with Kim. You feel the same way, don’t you?

Yeah, a lot of the things that Ron was made fun of for are things that made him relatable to the audience, so it seems like a terrible idea to make fun of those traits.

And making fun of him for things like being gender nonconforming, being neurodivergent, or having PTSD-induced phobias, is not something that seems funny 20 years later.

(Whether or not Ron was intended to be any of those things, he was coded that way, so it's hurtful to people who relate to him to see him being made fun of for that.)

And Ron was a main character, but he was mostly there to be made fun of.

What's the point of a main character who's sole purpose is to be made fun of?

Kim did feel overly perfect; her parents are too permissive with non-menial jobs, she's relatively popular, and she's rarely shown to not be instantly good at things.

She's known to practice cheerleading, but "A Sitch in Time" shows her doing an impossible routine on her first tryout.

She's never shown receiving any kind of Kung Fu training, but is apparently very skilled anyways.

All in all, Kim's life is perfect, and it makes it hard for people to relate to her.

I do think the focus shifted away from Kim a bit in season 4, especially once Hana was introduced. It definitely felt like there were more Ron-centric episodes in that season than in any of the previous three.

(They hadn't actually planned on continuing the show after "So The Drama", so I guess they didn't have as many plots for Kim as they did for Ron.)

Honestly, Kim having a female friend who's silly, weird, and awkward would have been awesome. Not every female character needs to be serious and focused all the time.

I'm not sure if I'd want it to be a female version of Ron, but I would think it'd be great to introduce a character like that.

Especially if it causes Kim to reflect on her relationship with Ron and how she's treated him at times.

Yes, I do relate to Ron more than I relate to Kim. I am female, but I am also neurodivergent and gender nonconforming, and Ron is a character I relate a lot to.

And I'm not the only one.

So a show indirectly making fun of me isn't something I'm okay with.