First Off, I'd Like To Thank You For Taking The Time To Reply To Me. It Doesn't Happen Often, So I Do

I'm not the first to mention this, but one bit that I thought was really clever in Steven Universe is the ways in which the show subtly justifies the cartoonism of the principle cast always wearing the same outfit for ease-of-animation purposes. The gems are a gimme in that they're all hardlight-projections, and even before that's solidified as a plot point they're otherworldly and superheroic enough that you don't really think to question it. But Steven canonically just owns hundreds and hundreds of those star shirts, which are leftover merchandise from his father's fizzled-out career as a rock star. Into which you can read a whole bunch of other stuff if you really want to, right? And I do want to. It's reflective of Greg's misplaced optimism that he got hundreds of those made in the first place, and it's a benign but visible example of how Steven's life is shaped by the knock-on effects of decisions his parents made before he was even alive. He's got his mother's superpowers and he's wearing his father's shirts.

Since I mentioned that there are times when Kim could have gotten character development if the creators had chosen to do it, I thought it'd be fair to give examples.

"The New Ron" - Kim learns she can be pushy and needs to respect her friends' decisions, even if she doesn't agree with them.

Note: I'd like to take out the aspect where Ron embraces the haircut and have him stay miserable instead. The takeaway from this episode, as written, is that you shouldn't force people into things because you might hate it. I want to focus on how miserable it'd make others to be forced into something like that. So, for those purposes, Ron stays miserable with his new haircut, and Kim learns that the reason you don't push people into stuff like that is because they'll be miserable and that's not something you should do to your friends.

"Number One" - If they had chosen to portray Will as competent, this could have been a valuable lesson for Kim about how being good at something doesn't mean no one else is good at it either. And that someone else being good at something doesn't diminish your skills. And that, sometimes, it is better to let someone else take over. The episode could end with Kim having a moment of humility where she has Bonnie takeover the job as Cheer Captain, not because she believes Bonnie will give it up in a few weeks, but because Bonnie is genuinely much better suited for the job.

"Sink or Swim" and "Return to Wannaweep" - These could have been episodes where Kim recognizes that she tends to dismiss Ron's feelings and realizes she needs to work on that.

"Coach Possible" - This would be a great moment for Kim to recognize that her competitive drive can get the best of her. It would be great if, to show that Kim recognized this and is going to work on it, they actually showed Kim apologizing to the team.

"The Ron Factor" - This would have been a great episode about Kim recognizing Ron's contributions and learning to appreciate him more.

"Adventures in Rufus-Sitting" - Kim could learn a lesson about taking her responsibilities seriously, both watching Rufus and guarding the chip.

I know it's an old show, but my sister proposed one of the craziest possible AUs for Avatar: The Last Airbender.

Background info: We're both convinced that the Ty sisters are descended from air nomads. They're all good at acrobatics, and their faces look just like Aang.

So, for the AU:

Firstly, Kuzon never claims to be from the colonies, just that his family does things a bit differently

When Kuzon gets into trouble, the school doesn't ask to meet his parents, they say they've already contacted his parents.

See, a free-spirited kid who disrespects the teachers, dances, gets into fights, and "does things differently" has got to be from the Ty family.

They assume no one ever mentioned Kuzon because, compared to his sisters, he is quiet and respectful, so he must get overlooked quite often.

Mr. and Mrs. Ty did show up. They were planning to just clear up the misunderstanding, but then they see a young boy who looks just like their daughters, and is on the verge of a panic attack, and just roll with it.

"You know why we know that the history book is wrong. We're not going to punish him for being right."

"He didn't start that fight, so we're not going to punish him for defending himself."

"Kuzon, sweetie, you can't dance while playing the tsungi horn, you'll hit the other students."

The Ty family might not show it often, but they are nobility, so it's not exactly the best idea to get them upset.

Mrs. Ty has air nomad heritage, and she and her husband disagree with most of the current Fire Nation policies. They've hoped to make good changes, but it's not easy.

Aang tells them he's the avatar after he finds out about their heritage.

The promise not to sell him out, and ask for air bending lessons.

Not much else planned here, but Ozai does get defeated quicker.

The most unbelievable thing about Disney's Descendants is that the princes and princesses, people who are known for being kind and compassionate, would be okay with literal children living on The Isle, despite knowing what things are like on The Isle, just because their parents are villains.

Like, I'll believe they decided to put their dangerous villains there to protect everyone.

(Not villains like LeFou and Smee though, because they're just not worth the trouble.)

But you expect me to believe that no one thought it wouldn't be fair to punish the kids for their parents' crimes? That people who are known for being kind thought this was fair?

Sorry, not buying it.

And it's not that they didn't know, because everyone knew the villains had kids, so they just, somehow, honestly thought this was a good idea.

But I don't believe it.

I understand that it has to be that way for plot reasons. My proposed change would be a very simple one:

They didn't know there were kids on The Isle.

They only found out shortly before Ben was going to be coronated, because Belle and Adam wanted to check on The Isle one more time before it became Ben's responsibility.

Thus, Ben immediately decides to invite some VKs to Auradon for a better life, but Belle and Adam are concerned that the VKs might be a lot like their parents. He agrees to only invite a few at first, but he's confident that they're not evil, just in terrible conditions.

Do you think people cling on too much to Adrien's high road advice as a reason to salt on him?

Yes, especially when there are plenty of other reasons to salt him that have previously been ignored. But to that end, it DOES serve as the final straw for people after a SERIES of problems that had previously gone unaddressed.

Much like many aspects of the show, Adrien has displayed problematic behaviors that have been overlooked and waved off in the earlier seasons. This is likely or especially due to the way how in each and every incident, Adrien was narratively shown to be correct. In his stance. In his choices. In his behaviors. He was always right. It doesn't matter if he shouldn't be, because he is.

Now unless you're a hater or anti or salter or whatever negative name people tend to get for not liking a story as it's presented, readers and watchers tend to follow along with the narrative as it presents things and how it presents things. It's a common setup in any story. Protagonist Centered Morality, I feel framed best by Susan in the Discord series:

Susan: ...and then Jack chopped down the beanstalk, adding murder and ecological vandalism to the theft, enticement and trespass charges already mentioned, but he got away with it and lived happily ever after without so much as a guilty twinge about what he had done. Which proves that you can be excused anything if you're a hero, because no one asks inconvenient questions.

Pretty much this. Most people will follow what the narrative says because it's the narrative. If the narrative wants you to focus on Marinette being embarrassed, you're going to focus on how much she's cringe. And if the narrative wants you to view Adrien as a perfect sunshine boy who never does anything wrong, anything he does is going to be framed through that lens and it's difficult to break from that view and call out the times when he is wrong. Not unless he does something particularly severe.

It should be noted that outside of Chameleon, Adrien had, among other things: lied to his partner, caused someone to get akumatized and had his partner take the blame, was messing around during life-threatening and city-threatening situations, did nothing as Chloe tormented people right in front of him, DEFENDED Chloe after she tormented people right in front of him, bailed on an event with friends to set up a date with someone who said she had other plans and then got mad at HER for it, tried to flirt or confess in the middle of an active crisis which took necessary attention away from said crisis, caused himself AND his partner to get hit by akuma powers and needlessly be taken out of commission.

And yet people could mostly overlook these instances. They weren't his fault. Chloe is his friend. Marinette is worse. He's just a kid. He has a tragic backstory. So on and so forth. Easy to overlook. Easy to ignore in favor of the Sunshine Boy setup people were given and want to believe in.

But there were three major instances that really grabbed people's attention and stayed:

His attitude in Frozer. It probably wouldn't have been so bad except this rejection already happened in Glaciator, where he was supposed to have learned a lesson and accepted just being Ladybug's friend and now apparently didn't, despite it happening earlier that very season. Then in response, he decides to date Kagami as a rebound, drags Marinette with him on his date (without realizing how he's asking his friend to be a third wheel on a DATE) and focuses on her when he's supposed to be with Kagami, throws another tantrum in the middle of an akuma fight and refuses to work with his partner when the city is literally frozen, and requires Ladybug to apologize to him for hurting his feelings before he finally working with her. Again. But okay, he's a teenage boy in love. Not used to rejection and got his feelings hurt. Lovesquare is endgame so of course it'll work out anyway, so it's not like this bump in the road is really going to matter long term so we shouldn't hold it against him. Fine. Dumb, but fine. We've forgiven it in other shows and other poorly done teen romances, we can forgive it here.

His behavior in Syren in which he demanded to know secrets from people when the secrets were not theirs to tell him, and went so far as to attempt to blackmail his kwami (which was funny) and threaten to quit and abandon the Ring that the big bad is after while the city is flooded and people were trying to not drown (which was decidedly less humorous). But it was played for wholesome when Plagg reassured him and he got what he wanted by Fu revealed himself even if Adrien did nothing to actually show he earned it, so all's well that ends well, I guess? And people could justify it because "they're partners" and "part of a team" and "she should trust him" and "it's not fair he's the only one left out of the loop" and "he has a right to know" and just general "Fu is an idiot" (which is admittedly hard to argue). So people were disgruntled, but most were willing to overlook it.

His holier than thou lecture to Marinette in Maledictator over everyone being happy Chloe was leaving. When all Marinette was doing at the time was watching everyone else have fun. When Adrien specifically guilted Marinette and not any of the other actual partiers involved who were literally throwing a party over his friend leaving and probably should have warranted a lecture more than the girl just standing there. When the girl in question was also Chloe's main target and out of everyone had valid reasons to be happy that her bully won't be around to bully her anymore. When Adrien himself has historically been present to witness Marinette being targeted including twice he witnessed Chloe attempt to steal from Marinette, once he witnessed her try to blackmail Marinette, and numerous other times when she actively caused harm to Marinette and others. When Adrien then proceeded to sit in a corner and pout rather than do anything else or just leave if the party really bothered him. When Adrien, if he really cared so damn much, could have gone after Chloe himself! Or y'know...have stood up for Chloe earlier when she got upset in the first place. But fine, okay, Chloe is his childhood friend. So maybe he's just being biased and oblivious to the fact that his "friend" is a horrible person. But people can excuse and justify it in that they are friends and friends support each other, and the longer someone is friends with someone else, the harder it is to break from them. And that Marinette was probably just the target of his lecture because she was the one there in the moment (and the only one who would listen without arguing). And her calling Chloe useless was "mean" despite it being quite frankly the least of what she could have said about her in the moment (coughcough theft cough blackmail cough punished the entire school cough TRIED TO CRASH A TRAIN AND NEARLY KILLED HER AND HER PARENTS COUGH-FREAKINGCOUGH). Fine. Childhood friend means Adrien supports her in all her horrible and even deadly actions. Frustrating, but again, able to be explained and you can see where he's coming from.

These are all things that definitely got Adrien some side eye at best and some detractors at worst.

BUT if you really think about it, all of these examples are objectively worse than his lecture to Marinette in Chameleon. Not accepting being told "no" and continuing to chase a girl who isn't that in to him (while leading on another). Putting lives at risk over personal wants that could quite honestly wait until AFTER the crisis is over. Defending someone who is harmful and guilt tripping the victims. Compared to those, telling someone to leave a liar to their lying seems relatively minor.

So why this? Why here? Why is it Chameleon that has people saying enough is enough? Why is it this episode that is causing the sunshine boy to be so tarnished and the subject of salt in fan fiction?

Because this is the time when it couldn't be rationalized. There wasn't even a valid sensible canon-based reason for his stance. The arguments that Adrien "knew confronting her wouldn't work" or that he "handled her like paparazzi" or that he "knew Marinette previously failed when she tried" (even though he wasn't there and didn't know) or that he "didn't think anyone would believe him" don't come from canon. Those were fan arguments made after the fact to justify him after the base was broken and the outcry became too much to ignore.

This case didn't have any of the ties or rationales of the previous incidents. Adrien wasn't defending himself or his place in a partnership. He wasn't fighting for his love or his dream or an outcome he wanted and that we all knew was coming. He wasn't defending a friend like he did with Chloe—I mean, it's pretty evident he doesn't even really know or like Lila at this point, and for all intents and purposes, this is apparently only the second day he actually had any interaction with her. There was no notable reason Adrien really had for why he essentially chose to protect Lila over literally anyone else as she wasn't a friend and it wasn't in his interests to protect her from a consequence that wouldn't hurt her short term as much as it would likely harm everyone else long term.

And yet, he still defended her and her freedom to lie. Over Marinette. Over Ladybug. Over his friends. Over any sense of right and wrong he seems to have no problem throwing around when it comes to Marinette/Ladybug. Which seems like he targets her 9 times out of 10 compared to pretty much anyone else by this point. So it's little wonder then that people who didn't already hate the lovesquare because of the cringe factor from Marinette started to hate it for being incredibly unhealthy given that their relatively limited interactions tend to involve him lecturing her for failing to live up to his double standards that only seem to apply to her in any given situation.

This incident by itself doesn't seem like much, but when looked at as part of the series as a whole, it's when people couldn't keep overlooking this trend. Where he seems to admonish the wrong person. Where he acts like a mouthpiece rather than a person. Acts like a brat but is treated as though he has no accountability in the situation he causes. Where he is wrong but no one and certainly not the narrative acknowledges it (not until season five and two seasons later when it doesn't matter and he's still not the one facing consequences for it).

And it's not like he actually follows the stances he himself promotes. In Chameleon, canon presents him with this idealistic stance that Lila could change if given a chance, except he doesn't give her a chance. He doesn't push her to be a better person. He doesn't support her to be the better person he insisted to Marinette she could be. He also doesn't do anything or warn anyone when she keeps lying and actively harms the people he says he cares about. He doesn't do anything one way or the other other than some lackluster encouragement to stop lying and a warning that goes nowhere. It just further gives credit to the argument that Adrien either simply doesn't care about other people, or that he doesn't care for Marinette specifically. Neither is conducive to the lovesquare or the increasingly tarnished view of the "sunshine boy".

And it could have worked. Canonically and intrinsically to his character. His idealism and trust in the wrong person comes back to bite him. He learns and grows from it. Except that, much like with nearly everything he does in canon, Chameleon set it up that Adrien was the writers' mouthpiece and thus was not "wrong". I'll grant that they did have him admit it and apologize to Marinette for it two seasons later, but it is pretty evident that during Chameleon, they intended his lecture to be right, with no foreshadowing and no implication otherwise. And I'm fairly certain they only backtracked and had him do that much because of the amount of fan outrage over the episode.

So yes, I think his lecture in Chameleon was really a final straw since unlike Chloe, Adrien has NO relationship with Lila to justify his defense of her. Especially when the argument is in favor of letting her lie to the people he's supposed to care about. That combined with how jarring it was how most of the class just sided with Lila over the seat issue in the first place, and I think people were less inclined to just ignore the problems in the episode specifically and with the series as a whole as they were compared to the first and second seasons. Not just with Adrien, as we see that Alya also started getting more callout and salt since then as well as more retrospective scrutiny over her behavior in earlier seasons.

But yeah...Chameleon was where things seemed to take a 180, so it's bound to be the deciding episode and deciding incident that sticks out in people's minds with these characters. That's probably why it ends up the go-to for salt and complaints on the characters involved instead of any of the other incidents that would arguably warrant it more.

Constantly Torn Between...

Not wanting to reveal spoilers for my AU series and wanting people to ask about it so I can answer questions.

Wanting to make my AU a comic and knowing I don't have the time, skill, or energy to make it look like I want.

Wanting to read fanfiction for inspiration and feeling bad for not coming up with completely original ideas.

Wanting people to enjoy my content and not wanting to care about the approval of others.

But that’s more of a problem with the show’s narrative rather than with Kim’s character.

And is super weird because Ron already gets a lot of spotlight from the series, he gets entire episodes where he does solo missions and succeeds, and even the series acknowledges from time to time how important he is to Kim’s success.

But those moments are few and far between, and right after that and most of the time he is back at being treated as the sidekick and as a liability even as a joke by the narrative and even by other characters and villains.

He is the sidekick, he is the comic relief. The show is called Kim possible after all. Kim is the Hero and Ron’s the sidekick. And that’s fair.

This is a comedic miseries and a girl empowerment show first and foremost. I don’t want to sound too harsh. The show at least acknowledges that Ron can be capable and has entire episodes dedicated to how much Kim needs him. Shouldn’t that be enough?

But it never stopped treating Ron as a sidekick and I get that’s the joke, but his character clearly developed far beyond that and I agree with you in that he deserves a little more respect from the show’s narrative.

Usually I dislike those type of stories, but now I can finally understand where those stories where Ron goes to Japan or becomes a superhero,even come from.

He is the most relatable character and a part of the fandom want to see him succeed and get the credit they think he deserves .

I wonder if there is a way to keep him in-character and maintain his role as a sidekick (that’s what he is! There’s no shame in that) and goofiness, while also showcasing that he is just as important and capable as Kim is. Do you think this is possible?

I think it can be a problem with both the narrative and Kim's character.

It being a problem with the narrative is a meta POV; it being a problem with Kim's character is an in-universe POV. And only one of those POVs makes for good fanfiction.

I wouldn't have a problem with him being treated like a sidekick if it came with respect and recognition. But he rarely ever gets that. It's not that Ron's the sidekick, it's that other sidekicks still get treated as important to the success of a mission, but Ron doesn't.

(Other sidekicks also get gadgets and communicators, and Ron doesn't.)

I don't think it's too harsh to say that Ron deserved more from the narrative. He outgrew the "goofy sidekick" role pretty early, so it's kind of annoying that no one acknowledges that.

Yeah, I'm not typically into the "Ron comes back from Japan" stories either, but I can understand why people would want them; Ron deserves recognition, and if Kim isn't going to give it to him, he deserves to leave and/or find someone who will.

Ron is extremely relatable, more so than Kim, so people would like him to be treated better.

As for keeping him as a goofy sidekick while still getting the respect he deserves, I do think it's possible, in theory...

However, that would require Kim acknowledging Ron is very capable, and Kim doesn't seem interested in doing that. (She adamantly denies it in "The Ron Factor".)

She is known to get jealous if Ron is good at something that she struggles with, so I don't think she'd be eager to acknowledge that he's good at anything, especially if it's something she takes pride in. ("Bueno Nacho", "Two to Tutor")

So, while it could work in theory, with the way Kim is, I don't think it would actually work well in practice.

It does seem like Ron going out on his own would be the only way for him to get respect.

It's sad, but, that's the way it is.

I would love for Ron to get more respect, but it doesn't seem like Kim is willing to give it.

So, if Ron decides the only way to get respect is to go out on his own, I wouldn't blame him.

Is surprising how much of the humor was based at Ron’s expense, specially when some of his behaviors like having hyperfixation over things he liked (Bueno nacho, wrestling) or scenes where he had to deals with issues such as dealing with fear, phobias and/or anxiety were oftentimes downplayed of painted in a way to make him look “funny”, “silly” or “dumb”.

Ron more often than not read as being neurodivergent and gender non conforming.

Why make fun of him using the things that could potentially make him relatable towards the audience?

I also agree with you about Kim feeling too perfect at times.

An argument I’ve heard people make was that Ron stole Kim’s spotlight at the end of the show. In that it was supposed to be “The Kim possible show, not Ron stoppable” Do you think this argument has any merit?

Sometimes I wish Ron as a character was convinced as a girl instead of a boy, to show girls could be silly, weird and awkward and still manage be useful in their own ways. (Similar to Luz from the owl house or Lilo from Lilo and Stitch).

This is part of the reason why despite being a girl, I always liked him and related to him more than with Kim. You feel the same way, don’t you?

Yeah, a lot of the things that Ron was made fun of for are things that made him relatable to the audience, so it seems like a terrible idea to make fun of those traits.

And making fun of him for things like being gender nonconforming, being neurodivergent, or having PTSD-induced phobias, is not something that seems funny 20 years later.

(Whether or not Ron was intended to be any of those things, he was coded that way, so it's hurtful to people who relate to him to see him being made fun of for that.)

And Ron was a main character, but he was mostly there to be made fun of.

What's the point of a main character who's sole purpose is to be made fun of?

Kim did feel overly perfect; her parents are too permissive with non-menial jobs, she's relatively popular, and she's rarely shown to not be instantly good at things.

She's known to practice cheerleading, but "A Sitch in Time" shows her doing an impossible routine on her first tryout.

She's never shown receiving any kind of Kung Fu training, but is apparently very skilled anyways.

All in all, Kim's life is perfect, and it makes it hard for people to relate to her.

I do think the focus shifted away from Kim a bit in season 4, especially once Hana was introduced. It definitely felt like there were more Ron-centric episodes in that season than in any of the previous three.

(They hadn't actually planned on continuing the show after "So The Drama", so I guess they didn't have as many plots for Kim as they did for Ron.)

Honestly, Kim having a female friend who's silly, weird, and awkward would have been awesome. Not every female character needs to be serious and focused all the time.

I'm not sure if I'd want it to be a female version of Ron, but I would think it'd be great to introduce a character like that.

Especially if it causes Kim to reflect on her relationship with Ron and how she's treated him at times.

Yes, I do relate to Ron more than I relate to Kim. I am female, but I am also neurodivergent and gender nonconforming, and Ron is a character I relate a lot to.

And I'm not the only one.

So a show indirectly making fun of me isn't something I'm okay with.

Okay, it's not that I hate Rainbow High. It's just that...who thought "future influencer" was a good career goal to give a teenage girl?!

Especially in a franchise geared towards children?

There are so many stories about what's wrong with influencers that I wouldn't make that a goal at all.

There are so many other things you can do with a Digital Media focus than influencer.

Or, if they didn't want to keep that, Violet has won at least one award for her photography.

Or, as we learn later, she used to paint.

Either of those would be acceptable.

Far better than influencer, the most unhealthy and toxic lifestyle you could pick for a Digital Media focus.

And they think one of their main characters should have that as a career goal.

Good grief.

One of the reasons I refuse to watch Rainbow World is because its introduction completely derailed a plot that could have led to character development.

"The Big Day Off" showed everyone getting a day off of classes and assignments, and showed them dealing with problems during them.

Jade and Skyler want to spend their time relaxing, but both have a hard time doing nothing so they keep finding new tasks to do.

Bella and Ruby are planning to revamp the Rainbow Union, but have gotten artist's block and can't come up with anything.

Poppy's planning to bake and Amaya's freaking out over an online personality test.

Violet and Sunny were planning to have a fun day together.

This where the problem arises.

When we make it to Violet and Sunny's part of the story, Violet realizes she lost her phone and freaks out about it.

Now, we could have had a plot of Violet struggling with her social media addiction while spending time with Sunny, but, instead, Sunny and Violet find a magic egg and spend the day taking care of it so any conflict that they might have had is overshadowed.

I would have liked it better if we had Sunny and Violet doing fun things together, and Violet keeps instinctively reaching for her phone. Sunny notices, and eventually she's just sad.

Violet: "Sunny, what's wrong? Aren't you having fun?"

Sunny: "I am. I just...I miss you."

Violet: "I've been right across the hall for months. I think it's the closest we've ever been. Aside from all those sleepovers."

Sunny: "I don't mean physical distance."

Violet: "What do you mean?"

Sunny: "I mean...I totally support your dream of being an influencer, but I miss being able to do things with you without you trying to get the best shot. I miss just having fun with you, without you worrying about showing the rest of the world. I miss you. I think I've seen your phone's camera more than you, lately."

Violet: "Oh. I didn't know you felt that way."

Sunny: "I'm trying to be supportive. You're my best friend and I want to support you."

Violet: "I don't want you to support me if it upsets you. I guess I do have a problem."

Sunny: "I mean, I wouldn't say it's a problem..."

Violet: "But it is, because it upsets you so much. I don't want to upset my friends, especially you. I'm going to try to do better, Sunny. I promise."

Sunny: "Thanks. And I guess I'll start telling you when you do something that upsets me."

Violet: "I'd like that."

Then, Sunny and Violet would hug and discuss their plans for the rest of the day.

See how interesting this would have been? We could have had acknowledgement of not just Violet's greatest flaw (social media addiction) but also Sunny's (overly forgiving and passive) with them both recognizing their flaws and promising to work on them.

Instead, we have Sunny and Violet taking care of an egg all day.

They deserved better.