What Are Your Thoughts On The Tweebs?

Do you really think all of ML's problems would be fixed if Adrien never existed?

Good heavens, no.

Adrien isn't the problem. He's just a symptom of a much larger issue. That issue being laziness and poor writing that comes in the form of "tell, don't show", plot threads that go nowhere, and lack of character development or plot progression that leads to a setup of "Status Quo Is God". Removing Adrien wouldn't fix all of that. Heck, it wouldn't fix any of that.

I can't fault the writers for replacing Felix with Adrien. Even if I and others could write out a plot with Felix, that's not to say everyone could or that the writers could. It could very well be that Felix as he was in the PV simply didn't work for the setup they had in mind.

...the issue here is that the setup they had in mind seems to require stagnancy. Where Hawk Moth attacks without winning and the heroes fight off the akumas without really trying to track him as the source and the two leads chase each other around in circles without anyone making any headway in either of these battles. Marinette wants to date Adrien. Chat wants to date Ladybug. It's why all her plans to ask him out fail while his attempts to express his feelings aren't taken seriously. And there is no forward movement, whether in their arc or in the fight against Hawk Moth. There wasn't even build or lead up to the two falling in love. They just started out episode one with crushes on each other and remained having crushes on each other until arguably season 5.

But no good story is stagnant. In this setup, characters need to do things and there needs to be a feeling of forward momentum.

Break it down this way: What is Adrien's problem? What is his goal? What is the obstacle to his goal?

Yes, we could say Adrien's dad being a supervillain and a neglectful jerk is Adrien's main problem, but it's not the problem Adrien is actually focused on in the show. Instead, if we could say Adrien has a problem, it would be that he wants to date Ladybug. And his goal is to date Ladybug. And the source of the problem and obstacle to his goal is...Ladybug.

So his problem, his goal, and the obstacle are all the same thing. This ultimately seems to make his problems Ladybug’s fault then because the problem would be solved if she gives in to his wants rather than by any real effort on his part.

Adrien as he is in the show doesn't do anything. And he doesn't need to do anything because he is at his base a character that things are done for. He doesn't have a goal or direction or drive. He just comes out to deal with akumas as needed, flirt with Ladybug when he can, and then be sad because his life is so hard when he doesn't get what he wants. We don't see him doing anything else. We don't see him making friends. We don't see him engaging in school. We don't even really see how he interacts with the classmates he only recently met. Things happen around him, but he is not a driving force in anything in the show.

But Felix in the PV is a very driving character. He had a problem: he's cursed. What does he need to break the curse? A kiss from Ladybug. What are the obstacles to his goal: Ladybug refusing to kiss him and Hawk Moth trying to kill her. How does he get that kiss? By flirting with her and trying to earn her affections while protecting her and making sure she doesn't DIE against an akuma before he gets that special curse-breaking kiss.

It's the start of Felix's journey. His goal and the various obstacles to that goal that make his story interesting and his growth possible. As such, I see him as a character who would progress in his attempts to obtain his goal as well as one who would progress the storyline...which is also accurate of 3D Felix since that's kind of what he's done more in his relatively few appearances than the series has in 5 seasons.

Adrien didn't have to have Felix's personality. He didn't have to have the same goals or level of drive. But he could still have had things where he grows and helps to push the plot forward.

Adrien...

...just started school. He has no friends, knows no one, and is trying to learn the ins and outs of public education. How is he doing in the different setting with teachers instead of tutors? How is he trying to get along with his classmates? Does he experience bullying? Does anyone NOT like him? What is he going through as a new student who had been homeschooled all his life?

...is friends with Chloe. What's it like learning his "only friend" is a bully? How do people respond to this? Does anyone (besides Marinette) fear him or avoid him because if he's friends with Chloe, he must be just like her?

...is a superhero. He could have been spending time learning the history of the ring and trying to develop his powers. Trying to get stronger? Trying to get to know Plagg? What is he experiencing as a highly known model who is also a superhero and having to juggle those dual identities?

...has a dead mom who died of a "mysterious illness". Given that this loss supposedly occurred about a year prior, he could still be mourning her. Maybe trying to learn what happened to her.

...has a neglectful father. How is he trying to interact with his dad? How does he feel about his dad not being around? What is he doing to try to resolve this?

...has a supervillain father. Like, I cannot stress this enough! His dad is a SUPERVILLAIN! His dad is THE SUPERVILLAIN THEY ARE FIGHTING! People were predicting him finding out and joining Gabriel to try and revive his mom! People were living for the eventual heartbreak of when Adrien finds out the truth! Entire AUs, fan arts, and fanfics were born of this very idea! Going into the drama and struggle Adrien would be experiencing being caught between the "right thing" and the girl he loves and his duty vs his father and his mother and his family. HOW CAN THEY JUST IGNORE THIS?!

But we don't get any of that. Instead, we get Adrien...

...just acclimated with no issues in school and automatically friends with everyone. Good for him, I guess. Wish it was that easy for the rest of us.

...doing little besides occasional comments to Chloe as she is completely horrible for five seasons including Chloe stealing from classmates, getting the entire school punished for something she did, stealing a Miraculous, trying to crash a train, and betraying the city to Hawk Moth. But it takes him learning about something she did to Marinette a year ago for him to finally decide enough is enough and drop her as a friend.

...only goes out to deal with akumas as they come but does nothing to try and figure out his powers and history, get stronger, or try to track Hawk Moth.

...just moves on from dead mom. No relevance here aside from wanting to see a movie she was in or making a passing comment about how she got sick. No attempt to find out what happened to her. No questioning what she may have wanted for him.

...is just sad about his neglectful father neglecting him but seems to get over it rather quickly.

...never learns his father is a supervillain. Okay, I take it back. He learns twice and those timelines are erased with no real repercussions other than trauma for Marinette, so it really doesn't feel like they count. The pieces are all there, though! He knows his dad has the grimoire but never questions him about it! Never asks his dad what the deal was with Tibet! No question about how mom died or what is going on with Nathalie or what he's doing with a hidden mechanism in mom's portrait.

Adrien has potential. He has plot threads and aspects that could be used and goals he could have. But the writing does nothing with him, so while he has a number of things he COULD do to move forward and progress as a character or for the plot, nothing comes of it.

And that all boils down to a problem with the writing.

Adrien was chosen over Felix as an "easier" option to keep the story at a standstill so they could drag it out for as long as needed. That doesn't mean it should have been. There were so many paths that could have been taken, but Adrien was given the personality of a wet noodle, so he acts on none of them because that was what the writers wanted out of his character.

Bonnie only dated Ron at those times so she could benefit from his wealth and dumped him as soon as he was robbed. Also Bonnie was on the rebound and only flirted with Ron so that she could get back at Kim.

I never said her reasons for dating him had to do with liking him, I just said she was supportive.

Ron's upset that someone got him adult lettuce instead of baby lettuce? Clearly, they need to do their job better.

(Also, there is a difference; baby lettuce has more nutrients. So if someone had an exotic rodent to feed, the difference would be important.)

Ron wants to buy impractically large jewelry? No problem, it's his money, after all.

Calls himself "The Ron"? Okay, takes an adjustment, but no problem.

Ron wants to go to the re-opening of J. P. Bearymore's? No big deal, it makes him happy.

Though her reasons for dating him weren't actually finding him attractive, she chose not to criticize and judge him the times they were dating.

Also, her flirting with Ron, shockingly, had nothing to do with getting back at Kim. It was entirely because she was on the rebound and Ron happened to win Homecoming King. Honestly, she probably would've done that no matter who won, but it wouldn't have been dramatic if it had been anyone other than Ron.

As a follow up to you post about mentors, just to make things fair, what are examples of Tikki being a bad mentor to Marinette?

Post in question for context.

Tikki often acts as the voice of the author. She's there to explain why Marinette is in the wrong. Since Miraculous has some wacky morals, that means we get a mix of good advice and wacky nonsense advice.

Two examples of bad advice that come to mind are Gamer and Strikeback. Gamer is the episode where Marinette stumbles upon an Ultimate Mecha Strike tournament, realizes that Adrien is taking part, and decides to compete so they can be on a team together. Marinette wins a spot through her own hard won skills and then this happens:

Tikki: All you wanted to do is spend time with Adrien, there are other ways to do that! Marinette: What are you getting at? Tikki: You know how much Max wanted to be in that tournament. Kim said he'd been training for it all year. Marinette: You're right. All I could think about was Adrien. 

This is how tournaments work, right? They're not tests of skill, but tests of who put in the most work or who wants to compete the most! That's why we had that scene with Marinette writing out her training schedule and motivations for evaluation, but she lied and that was wrong and...

Okay, I was the one lying here. There was no written evaluation because that's not how tournaments work. All anyone cares about is your skills. They don't care if you're doing this for personal glory or to get closer to a boy or whatever Adrien's motivation was because - notably - his motivation didn't matter in this episode about needing pure motives to be allowed to do things.

What if he didn't care about the competition and only did it to get closer to his classmates? That's not even a random guess. It's a valid read because Adrien ultimately gives his spot to Max while claiming that Max is the better player even though Adrien very clearly beat Max at the start of the episode. Ignoring that weird nonsense dialogue, why was it fine for Adrien to compete when he didn't care but wrong for Marinette to do the same? And Max wanting to compete to show off his skills is also a totally selfish motivation, so why does it matter that he wanted it more? Everything about this episode was nonsense and uncomfortably sexist. If Max wants to compete, then he needs to get better at the game. That's how competitions work.

Strikeback is the second part of the season four final and it starts with Marinette mourning the fact that "Adrien" has left Paris, leading to this:

Marinette: (crestfallen) It's all over, Tikki. Tikki: He'll be back, Marinette. He's just going on a voyage!

Which would be lovely advice if Adrien was a normal boy, but he's Chat Noir and Tikki knows that. She should be freaking out and trying to find a way to get him back to Paris, but then Tikki would have to support Marinette's actions and we can't have that, so instead Tikki gives this nonsense advice because she has to be against whatever "wrong" thing Marinette is doing today.

I could come up with a few more examples, but I think those two paint a pretty good picture of issue one re Tikki. However, when it comes to Tikki, my main issue with her is less a wealth of bad advice - unlike Plagg*, I think she's right more often than not - and more a lack of support. It feels like she's just here to judge Marinette and point out when she's doing something wrong, but a good mentor should be so much more than that.

Kuro Neko is a great example of this. When Chat Noir quits, Tikki just sits back and does nothing while her young charge is freaking out. She doesn't even try to defend Marinette when Plagg is going off about Chat Noir's "ill treatment". For all Plagg's faults in that episode, at least he's doing something about the situation. Meanwhile Tikki literally has two lines in the entire episode! A similar thing happens in Kwami's Choice where Plagg is the one driving them to act while Tikki just wrings her hands in despair.

Tikki: (sighs heavily) What can we do? Plagg: We must free them of that impossible choice. We must… free them of us.

These are not the actions of a mentor. Mentors aren't supposed to just offer judgement about things that their mentee has already done or is considering doing. They're supposed to be a source of support and guidance in hard times, but we never really see Tikki stepping in to give Marinette that kind of advice. If memory serves, she never offers solutions or acts as a sounding board. That role is mainly filled by Alya and I love Alya! It's good for Marinette to have support from a friend, but Alya is also a teenager while Tikki is an ancient being who has seen many Ladybugs go through the kind of struggles that Marinette is going through. I expect her to use that knowledge to help her charge, but she never does. This exchange from Passion perfectly highlights this problem:

Tikki: Don't worry, Plagg... my holder has decided to run away from her real feelings to pursue an impossible love with Cat Noir instead. Plagg: Uh, just to be sure, sugarcube, you do know that Cat Noir and my holder are one and the same person, right? Tikki: I do, but my holder doesn't. Plagg: If she declares her love to Cat Noir, something tells me she'll find out soon enough. Tikki: You have nothing to fear. When my holder is in love, she never gets anywhere. She'll just knit hats and make very complicated plans that will never come to fruition. Plagg: Hmm... ah, then everything's fine.

Tikki, I love you, but by the gods! With a mentor like you, Marinette doesn't need enemies to be miserable! Do you care about her at all??? What kind of mentor delights at their mentee's suffering? Not a good one, that's for sure.

*Quick note: I think that Plagg and Tikki are probably neck and neck for who has given the most bad advice, Plagg just feels like the bigger problem because we don't see him as much as we see Tikki. Since she's tied to the main character, Tikki gives advice in almost every episode and most episodes have decent morals.

Adrien's need for good advice can also feel more glaring because he's so isolated and passive. That makes Plagg's lack of good advice feel more harmful, but Marinette is just as isolated from real advice. Her mentor figures - Su Han, Fu, and Tikki - mostly give orders and judgement instead of support and guidance. It's just harder to spot that fact because Marinette is actively trying to do the right thing, meaning that she's more likely to make mistakes, and it's easy to see why she comes across as a lot less pathetic and a lot easier to judge.

Reblogging to add an idea for season 4.

In "Homecoming Upset" Ron, after being stuck with the job of finding Bonnie a boyfriend, a job he did not want, realizes his relationship with Kim is still very unequal. When he attempts to talk to Kim about it, it results in an argument and them breaking up.

Whether Ron dates Bonnie or not after this is up to interpretation.

Possible AUs

While I love the idea of Ron deciding to end things with Kim after "Crush", there are definitely other times when Ron could've ended his friendship with Kim, and if you're interested in that trope in fanfiction, I think you might find this list helpful.

After being forced into a haircut in "The New Ron", Ron decides Kim's controlling behavior is too much for him. He ends his friendship with Kim and calls her out for her behavior.

After using mind control on her brothers at the end of "The Twin Factor", Kim is grounded for a long time, leaving Ron to handle missions alone. This would cause Ron to realize his own skills, and put a strain on his relationship with Kim as she can't stand to watch him succeed on missions without her. Kim also finds herself with fewer babysitting jobs once word of her using mind control on her brothers gets around.

Kim finds herself getting fewer missions after word of her negligence and reckless endangerment in "October 31st" gets out. She also finds herself banned from Monique's house since she destroyed the garage door.

Upset over GJ thinking Ron is the secret to her success in "The Ron Factor", Kim tries the solo hero thing, and fails. Unfortunately, her parting had left Ron hurt and upset, and he's not interested in coming back to Kim.

After "Adventures in Rufus-Sitting", Rufus manages to communicate to Ron what happened while he was away, and Ron gets angry that Kim not only neglected and endangered Rufus, but lied to him about it. Ron ends things with Kim as he doesn't know how he can keep being friends with someone who cares so little about Rufus.

Ron comes back from his trip in "Exchange" with new skills, new confidence, and an unwillingness to put up with Kim's controlling behavior. So he takes a break from Kim when she gets to be too much for him.

After constantly being ignored about Gil in "Return to Wannaweep", Ron decides to end things with Kim and look for someone more supportive. Kim finds herself booted from the squad after they learn about how she intentionally sabotaged her own teammate to succeed.

Team Impossible from "Team Impossible" uses legal actions to keep Kim out of the save the world business, at least until she's 18, due to the reasons mentioned in my post about them. They offer to train Kim and Ron in how to be better heroes, but Ron is the only one who accepts.

Feeling abandoned in "So The Drama", Ron decides to confront Drakken alone. He succeeds, and it starts a new chain of events where Ron realizes how little Kim cares for him and decides he deserves better.

There might be episodes in Season 4 that could have Ron end things with Kim, but I feel like at that point it would take a lot, and Kim didn't do anything truly heinous to Ron so he wouldn't.

If anyone can think of any other episode where they think it would make sense for Ron to end things with Kim, please feel free to comment!

Thoughts on the Ron/Monkey Fist rivalry?

They were great foils to each other; Monkey Fist craves power and is obsessed with monkeys, while Ron doesn't desire power and is afraid of monkeys.

But Ron is the one meant to become the Mystical Monkey Master.

Honestly, it was probably Ron's humbleness and the fact that he doesn't want power that made him worthy of it in the first place.

You know, only pure of heart can become the Monkey Master, or something like that.

One thing that irks me though is, even though Monkey Fist knows Ron is meant to be the Monkey Master, and thus usurp the power from him, he still refers to Kim as his arch-foe.

Which makes no sense.

He should be declaring Ron as his sworn enemy because Ron is the one meant to take the Monkey Power from him and Kim is just a teenage girl who saves the world.

But, then again, the show is all about Kim.

Kim's the one who saves the world and Ron is her bumbling sidekick, so of course Kim is his arch-foe, even though Ron is the established, pre-destined threat to his plans.

It's probably his ego that keeps him from acknowledging Ron as his arch foe, but I'd still think it'd be cool if one of the villains, other than Gil, actually viewed Ron as a serious threat.

And Monkey Fist is the perfect mandrill for the job.

Would a sequel series that acknowledges Kim’s flaws and works to fix them help you see her in a better light?

Ideally? Yes.

Honestly? I'm not 100% sure, but it would be appreciated.

The most important thing is that it's handled without people acting too out of character.

For example, if Ron tells Kim how much something hurts him and she immediately apologizes and corrects it, though it'd be nice, it's not very in-character.

They'd need to have more back and forth before Kim acknowledges that she's hurting him/that it's bad.

Not saying they have to break up, but it wouldn't be very in-character for Kim to immediately recognize her faults.

Kim's very stubborn. Not being mean, she just is.

It's a requirement for saving the world, but when it negatively impacts her personal life, it's a problem.

I loved all three of the shows you mentioned. Though in Winx Club’s case I just love the earlier seasons they went off the rails.

I'm not sure "off the rails" is the term I'd use, but it did seem like some of the plots were pretty crazy towards the end.

Then again, it is a world of magic, so I guess crazy can be expected.

Still feels like a bit much at times though.

And, as I stated, I know Winx Club didn't handle everything perfectly all the time, but it still did "girl power" way better than Kim Possible did.

Since I mentioned that there are times when Kim could have gotten character development if the creators had chosen to do it, I thought it'd be fair to give examples.

"The New Ron" - Kim learns she can be pushy and needs to respect her friends' decisions, even if she doesn't agree with them.

Note: I'd like to take out the aspect where Ron embraces the haircut and have him stay miserable instead. The takeaway from this episode, as written, is that you shouldn't force people into things because you might hate it. I want to focus on how miserable it'd make others to be forced into something like that. So, for those purposes, Ron stays miserable with his new haircut, and Kim learns that the reason you don't push people into stuff like that is because they'll be miserable and that's not something you should do to your friends.

"Number One" - If they had chosen to portray Will as competent, this could have been a valuable lesson for Kim about how being good at something doesn't mean no one else is good at it either. And that someone else being good at something doesn't diminish your skills. And that, sometimes, it is better to let someone else take over. The episode could end with Kim having a moment of humility where she has Bonnie takeover the job as Cheer Captain, not because she believes Bonnie will give it up in a few weeks, but because Bonnie is genuinely much better suited for the job.

"Sink or Swim" and "Return to Wannaweep" - These could have been episodes where Kim recognizes that she tends to dismiss Ron's feelings and realizes she needs to work on that.

"Coach Possible" - This would be a great moment for Kim to recognize that her competitive drive can get the best of her. It would be great if, to show that Kim recognized this and is going to work on it, they actually showed Kim apologizing to the team.

"The Ron Factor" - This would have been a great episode about Kim recognizing Ron's contributions and learning to appreciate him more.

"Adventures in Rufus-Sitting" - Kim could learn a lesson about taking her responsibilities seriously, both watching Rufus and guarding the chip.

I’m always wondering if it was better or worse for BBT and Young Sheldon creators to say that Sheldon is NOT on the spectrum. But then I see how they treat neurodivergence on shows like Miraculous, and go probably better they keep away from stuff they don’t understand.

I suspect what happened with Sheldon’s character is that they probably modeled him after people they either didn’t know or didn’t care were on the spectrum and by the time everyone was like “hey this guy is obviously autistic” they’d made fun of him too many times to suddenly claim being pioneers of sitcom neurodivergent representation without also having to accept responsibility for their past attitudes towards him

I do, however, think the red itchy sweater episode was fantastic in delivering a message regarding some forms of neurosis

As for ML, it is, at its core, a tell don’t show series. These characters are in love, are close friends, are good at X and Y, are passionate about this and that, hate Z, so on and so forth. We rarely learn about characters and happenstances through actions, to the point where very clear irrefutable events are verbally retconned by random characters and we’re supposed to accept what they say as canon over what we saw. It doesn’t matter if characters are noticeably queer, neurodivergent, good/bad at something, biased about certain people/subjects, struggling with XYZ, etc. If someone doesn’t outright state it, it isn’t canon. This is where the crew loves to claim brownie points for representation but doesn’t actually do anything that might upset the Suits and their bigotry. They have an ethnically diverse character lineup but they’re all perfectly assimilated to white french culture and rarely acknowledge their own supposed heritage. They criticize police abuse but have the victims apologize to their assailants. They have queer characters but their relationships are mostly implied off-screen so they have plausible deniability. They have kids whose parents are clearly mistreating them to the point of leaving lifelong scars and affecting their ability to become functional members of society but it’s obviously not abuse.

I swear there’s some kind of disconnect between the dialogue and the action lines on the script, like no one member of the crew knows what the other is doing and everything is just taped together at the end with no revisions

It’s weird that they simply dropped Josh Mankey as a character. All they have done with him was say he and Kim drifted apart and we don’t even get an explanation of where he went last season. Wish they actually shown us the progress of the relationship and how it broke apart.

Yeah, that is weird.

My personal headcanon: the reason he's not seen later in the series is because he graduated. I mean, there's nothing that states he's the same age as Kim and Ron, so he could be older.

As for his relationship with Kim, I would have liked to see more of it, and gotten a better explanation for why they broke up.

I mean, and this isn't an attempt to diss Kim, saying they drifted apart and it was time to move on sounds like the explanation you give when you don't want to talk about the real reason you broke up.

Obviously, Josh hadn't done anything bad, otherwise Kim wouldn't have had a problem talking about it, but I doubt it was truly as simple as growing apart.

There could be a lot of reasons for their breakup, and I'm very interested in hearing what other people think might have been the actual reason.