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So I saw this tweet today, and I think the question this person poses is actually a very interesting jumping off point for analysis. I absolutely refuse to make a 100 tweet long thread about this though, so here I am, typing out my thoughts on a platform without a character limit.

(this is all /dsmp /rp, unless otherwise specified all names refer to characters, not content creators)

I wanna start off by saying that I am NOT what I would describe as a “Dream anti/hater.” I’m a MASSIVE enthusiast, he’s easily one of my favorite villains in any piece of media I’ve ever consumed, precisely because he is a smug, over-the-top asshole who will stop at absolutely nothing to get his way. It’s incredibly fun to see his antics in action, and immensely satisfying when he finally gets his comeuppance.

I’m going to first delve into the second question: what makes Dream different from other villains in other pieces of media?

Well, he’s not, not really. The way he acts and carries out his plans is unique to his character of course, but the role he fills in the narrative and the way he plays that role is a pretty common archetype, though one that has fallen a bit out of use as of late.

Dream is a Pure Evil Villain.

The video I’ve linked goes into WAY more depth, but the basics of the PEV archetype is that they:

Have no backstory (at least not one that’s relevant to the plot).

Have very simplistic goals (i.e. taking over the world, retribution for perceived slights, or just wreaking indiscriminate havoc).

Have motivations that are purely self-serving, and they’re having a lot of fun carrying them out. (That said, some PEVs had complex motivations once upon a time and may have been full-on good guys, but have long lost sight of their original goal.)

Have an unwavering sense of self-confidence, and a MASSIVE ego.

End their stories with a third-act breakdown (or as TvTropes refers to it, a Villainous Breakdown, which is a term I’m gonna keep using here because DSMP doesn’t have a three-act structure), where they crash and burn in spectacular fashion as the hero finally comes out on top.

Dream ticks ALL of these boxes.

He has no backstory or even a point of view, and even if he got one, it wouldn’t change much about how we perceive his character. We can glean his goals, motives and personality pretty well from his interactions with the people around him.

His goal is literally just “control the entire server through any means necessary,” which is why he goes to such lengths to crush his political rivals, break Tommy’s defiance against him, and create a giant fuckoff prison to throw major threats into.

He’s stated multiple times that he enjoyed watching L’Manburg get destroyed, was laughing and telling Lazar “this is the best part” while destroying Tommy’s armor in exile, and tells Tommy and Tubbo he’s “playing with [his] food, that’s the fun in it” after they lose the initial battle of the Final Disc War.

He’s nothing BUT self-confident. I cannot remember a single moment where he doubts himself or has a moment of introspection, and an insult I’ve never heard Tommy use for anyone except Dream is “egotistical bastard.”

His villainous breakdown happened at the end of the Final Disc War, when he was suddenly made powerless, none of his manipulation tactics worked anymore and Tommy was actively beating him to death. He ended up huddling in a corner, begging and bargaining for his life, before being thrown into his own prison.

(Sidenote ‘cause I know it’s gonna get brought up. Dream has claimed he just wants the server to be a happy family twice, but the context of the scenes make it obvious that you’re not supposed to take that line at face value.

The first time he said it, he was talking to Punz, his only ally at the time, while standing in front of the prison he commissioned, helped design and helped build. During that same conversation, he claimed the prison was only for the most dangerous people on the server… but also that it had twenty cells, and a main cell that could fit multiple people, when the server’s population at the time was about thirty. This conversation also took place right after Tommy ran away from exile, meaning Dream was saying this knowing he’d abused and wanted to continue abusing a sixteen year-old boy to the point where he attempted literal suicide.

The second time, he was talking to Tommy in prison, right after Tommy told him he wouldn’t be visiting him anymore, and Dream was desperately trying to change his mind by claiming he could change as a person if Tommy kept up his visits. Tommy’s response says it better than I could.

Dream’s actions speak louder than his words. He can claim he just wants a happy family, but when he’s cut off, abused, kidnapped, killed, tormented and blackmailed the people he’s supposed to care about into compliance, it becomes pretty obvious that if you don’t fit into HIS image of a happy family, you need to be locked up in a tiny box or dumped on a remote island and beaten until you’re so broken you will just do whatever he tells you to without question.)

Now, if you have a shitty literature teacher, they’ll tell you that villains NEED to be morally grey, have complex motivations and a chance at redemption, otherwise it’s bad writing. However, that’s not true. Some of the most iconic villains of pop culture are PEVs, like Bill Cipher, or Megatron, or Moriarty, or literally any classic Disney villain. It’s not bad writing, it’s just not fashionable right now. Just because other villains in the narrative ARE morally grey, doesn’t mean Dream needs to be.

It’s also become popular nowadays to have a PEV AND a sympathetic, redeemable villain working together, most often with the sympathetic villain serving under the PEV. Zuko is sympathetic and redeemable, Ozai is the PEV. Gideon Gleeful is sympathetic and redeemable, Bill Cipher is the PEV. Catra is sympathetic and redeemable, Hordak is the PEV. Nebula is sympathetic and redeemable, Thanos is the PEV.

This allows writers to have the best of both worlds; it allows for the emotional journey and incredible character development that comes with a really good redemption arc, while also having the flair and pizazz and unbridled charisma and catharsis at seeing them crash and burn that comes with a PEV. Some writers try to have both in one character, but that rarely ever goes right (like how Thanos’s goal of wiping out half the universe is supposedly to prevent overpopulation while keeping biodiversity, yet he also killed all the dwarves and tortured Eitri for no reason).

Whenever Dream teams up with another villain, he’s ALWAYS taking the PEV role.

When he teamed up with Wilbur for November 16th, Wilbur acted the way he did because he was mentally ill, suicidal and severely paranoid, convinced nobody wanted or needed him, that everyone secretly hated him, that betrayal was just around the corner, and that he was the villain of his own story. He destroyed his own creation in a fit of anguish, before committing suicide by proxy. While his behavior is largely unchanged after his revival, it’s clear he is still in a lot of pain, and there is a lot of setup for a redemption arc for him. Dream, meanwhile, fought on Schlatt’s side, egged Techno on through whispers as Tubbo was being sworn in, screamed the loudest “YES” I’ve ever heard when the TNT went off, then proceeded to place more TNT and attack everything in sight while Techno went on his rampage. When everything was said and done, he even ran over to Tommy’s house and blew that up too for good measure.

When Dream teamed up with Techno and Philza during Doomsday, Philza was clearly convinced L’Manburg was the cause of all the pain on the server and that destroying it would be the right thing to do, and used its destruction as an outlet for the grief he carried over the death of his son. While his target was misplaced, you can see how he came to the conclusions he did, and how his own biases, prejudices and boomer-ish “I am older and have more experiences therefore I’m always right” attitude cloud his judgement. Dream, meanwhile, outright admitted that he decided to destroy L’Manburg instead of burning the discs because it was just more fun that way, and said some DISGUSTINGLY creepy things to Tommy on the grid. We also know that, after Techno and Phil already left, Dream stayed behind and rained TNT down for days.

(I didn’t mention Techno here because I would argue that, in the context of Doomsday, Techno also classifies as a PEV. That’s a discussion for another time though.)

The Final Disc war, in my opinion, PERFECTLY illustrates Dream’s pure evilness. He describes himself and his actions as evil multiple times, acts completely in his own self-interest, is MASSIVELY overconfident until he’s thwarted by Punz and co, and he is, of course, having an absolute BLAST with his reprehensible actions.

Which leads me into the other question: what makes him irredeemable?

PEVs are irredeemable pretty much by definition. The combination of selfish motives, massive ego and lack of introspection makes for a character that’s EXTREMELY allergic to character development, and character development is pretty much the point of a redemption arc. It’s a MASSIVE shift in a character’s goals, ideals, morals and sometimes personality, brought on by massive amounts of introspection and self-doubt, and that’s just not something a self-assured, egotistical person who KNOWS their goals are selfish and evil and enjoys it would ever really do.

The only PEV I’ve ever seen get something resembling a redemption arc is Hordak from the She-Ra reboot.

(SPOILERS)

In season 3, Hordak meets Entrapta, a princess working for the Horde with a scientific mind just like his. As he bonds with and gets romantic feelings for Entrapta, he slowly starts to open up to her about his past, his struggles with his physical health, and how he just wants the approval of Horde Prime. When Prime eventually arrives however, his achievements are waved off, he’s deemed defective due to his physical illness, and has his memories erased. He’s eventually used as a replacement body by Prime, before openly defying Prime and hurling him off a cliff.

Thing is though, it’s not a redemption arc in that he’s instantly forgiven, or even that he’s a good person now. The princesses (sans Entrapta) look visibly uncomfortable or afraid of him, and Mermista even outright asks if anyone is gonna say something about Hordak being there during the big end-of-series celebration. Hordak defied Prime, but he’s not automatically a good guy, nor is he treated as one.

(END OF SPOILERS)

The most important point is: as soon as Hordak enters his redemption arc, he stops being a PEV. His backstory is suddenly integral to his character, his self-confidence turns out to be a farce, and while his motives are still self-serving, they’re much more complex than the generic take-over-the-world villain he was before. A redeemable PEV can’t exist, because as soon as they start redeeming themselves, they cannot continue being pure evil.

Dream has shown to be completely allergic to character development. No bargain with him has ever worked to his detriment, nobody can reason with him because he’s so set in his own ways, and he has never shown any kind of remorse for his own actions. The only person he’s ever apologized to is Tommy, and you can tell from his tone and the way he refuses to even mention specific events that he’s sorry for that it’s purely performative. Any redemption arc NEEDS to start with a villain examining themselves, or feeling remorse for their actions, or questioning their position. Dream never does that, HAS never done that, and it’s looking like he never will.

However, if you’re looking at specific actions that make him irredeemable, there’s one event that pushes him over the edge.

Because sure, some villains have tortured people, have killed people, have committed acts of terrorism, and still received redemption arcs (though there’s usually some level of coercion involved so they cannot be held 100% responsible, like they were brainwashed or acting on someone else’s orders).

There is, however, a line. TvTropes refers to this line as the Moral Event Horizon, as like with the event horizon of a black hole, once you pass it, there is no going back. Where that line is is kind of subjective, it depends on the narrative weight placed on the event, the cultural standards of the audience, and in part, the personal opinion of the viewer.

But I don’t think it’s a controversial statement to say that Dream passed the Moral Event Horizon with Tommy’s exile.

I don’t know if you’ve watched exile live, but as someone who has, I can tell you that it was fucking GRIM. People had to stop watching the streams entirely or wait for people to post trigger warnings and summaries on Twitter and Tumblr before watching the VOD, because it was legitimately triggering to some. AO3 was full of fics of Tommy being pulled out of Logstedshire by other people on the server (mostly Techno and Phil) a trembling, traumatized husk of his former self, and those were the OPTIMISTIC ones. There were jokes about Tommy’s chat getting traumatized with him, as they were constantly telling him to run, get away from Dream and hide his armor, and whenever “Dream joined the game” appeared in chat, everyone’s stomachs collectively DROPPED. The general mood in the fanbase was one of helpless panic and terror as we watched this kid be slowly destroyed in front of our eyes through physical, emotional and psychological abuse, gaslighting, and isolation. Hell, exile is the event that sparked the creation of the c!, cc!, /dsmp and /rp tags, because people didn’t want sentences like “what Dream is doing to Tommy is abuse, this is actually horrific” to make it to the wider internet without any kind of context.

Exile is one of the most narratively heavy events on the server. It changed Tommy and Dream’s relationship status from “friendly rivals” to “abuser and victim,” and completely destroyed any sense of friendship they had left after November 16th. It’s permanently scarred Tommy to the point where even now, nine whole months later, he still has self-esteem issues, depressive episodes, flashbacks, panic attacks, suicidal thoughts, and a pervasive fear of Dream breaking out of prison. It’s one of the most realistic portrayals of abuse and trauma in fiction I’ve ever seen, and it is HARD to rewatch.

But most importantly, the vast majority of people who thought Dream was in the right at the time dropped that IMMEDIATELY as soon as it became apparent what exile was REALLY about. I have a friend who was a huge sympathiser/apologist for L’Manburg and Pogtopia era Dream, but who refuses to even CONSIDER defending anything related to exile. The points about exile not being that bad, Tommy deserving it, or Dream trying to help him somehow didn’t start cropping up until MONTHS after exile ended, when memories of the events had been warped by time, fanon had blended with canon, and the horrific details had faded in most people’s minds.

There are very few outright abusive characters who have gotten redemption arcs, and those arcs are often reviled by fans. Abuse, child abuse especially, is one of those actions that make you completely irredeemable as a villain, like torturing someone purely for fun, or killing babies, or kicking dogs. Ozai’s establishing character moment is a flashback where he burns his son’s face off and exiles him for speaking out of turn, and the show makes it clear you’re not supposed to see that as anything EXCEPT revolting.

There is nothing Dream’s POV could show us that would make what he did to Tommy acceptable. There’s nothing he could say or do that would make exile okay. Exile is as low as he could morally go, and the fact that he not only has shown no remorse for it, but even seems to remember it fondly makes redemption impossible for him. What could he do that’s worse than exile? What would prompt him to feel any semblance of guilt or shame if exile didn’t spark it?

When you isolate and abuse a sixteen year-old boy, clearly have fun doing it, and feel not a single shred of guilt in the aftermath, you’re not gonna get a redemption arc, because that’s just not the kind of character you are at that point. Redemption arcs are reserved for sympathetic villains and fallen heroes, like Zuko, like Catra, like Wilbur. Even Hordak, who got a redemption arc, wasn’t an actual PEV in the end. He was a sympathetic villain in disguise, and as he shed the mask of pure evil and got some character development, the role of PEV was passed to Horde Prime.

The reason villains like Ursula, Maleficent, Bill Cipher, Cruella De Vil and Jafar are so fun to watch is precisely BECAUSE they’re unapologetically evil. The biggest criticism the live-action adaptations of Maleficent and Cruella received is that they strip that away from the characters to make them sympathetic and redeemable, and therefore - ironically - a lot more bland.

Dream’s pure evilness is what makes his character so much fun to watch. Giving him a redemption arc now not only wouldn’t make sense narratively speaking, it would actively strip away the aspects of his character that make him such a good villain! People don’t watch a PEV to see them grapple with their morality, they watch them to see them fuck shit up! A true PEV needs to be stripped of everything that makes them cool and interesting to their audience in order to even BEGIN thinking about redemption.

You can even see this happening in the way Dream is retroactively made to be more sympathetic by his apologists. There’s this running joke in a Discord server I’m in that Fanon!Dream is a fucking pussy, and that Canon!Dream would wipe the fucking floor with him, and I can’t help but agree.

There’s an idea going around that Wilbur manipulated Dream into becoming evil, that he constantly called Dream a tyrant and a dictator, and that Dream was so upset by this that he started the L’Manburg War. Except, not only does this have no basis in canon, it kinda makes Dream look pathetic, doesn’t it? Canon!Dream is a tyrannical control freak who saw some people make an area where his rules didn’t apply and decided to beat it into the ground to once again rule undisputed, not caring who he hurt or killed in the process. Fanon!Dream started a whole war because Some Guy he’d canonically talked to maybe twice and his annoying brother called him mean names.

There’s also the idea that exile needed to happen, because Dream saw that Tommy was such a destructive asshole all the time that he posed a massive threat to the server. Except… Tommy is absolutely not the most destructive person on the server. He’s loud and annoying, sure, and he could be destructive, especially in the early days where he often vandalized people’s stuff for fun. But… it never got worse than that. Was a teenager swearing at people and doing petty vandalism really such a massive threat to the server’s apparently paper-thin integrity that he needed to be taken away for everyone else’s safety? Or was it the fact that Tommy constantly called Dream out on his bullshit, refused to concede to his terms, questioned his authority, and encouraged other people to do the same?

Making Dream heroic also warps every single character around him, making them all unreasonably cruel to Dream specifically. Wilbur made him a villain for Reasons and was always a controlling chessmaster manipulating everyone around him (honestly it’s like their entire personalities switched places here). Tommy is a rabid animal only capable of destruction who needs to be kept on a leash for everyone else’s safety. L’Manburg is a xenophobic, colonialist, other buzzword empire. Sapnap and George left him because they’re bad friends, and not because he continually betrays them, uses them, disregards their wishes completely, and does nothing to refute Sapnap’s claim that he doesn’t care about them. He doesn’t deserve to be in prison, despite the fact that he murdered a bunch of people, abused a child, committed multiple acts of terrorism, and got caught red handed trying to murder a defenseless teenager while his friend watched and having a vault with everyone’s most valued possessions for blackmail purposes. Oh and did I mention the Skeppy cage?

A redemption arc for Dream would not only open up some really uncomfortable cans of worms (like Tommy suddenly being expected by fans and other characters to forgive and be nice to the man who made his life a living hell for months), it would be an active detriment to his character, because it strips away everything that makes him interesting in the first place.

If you want to watch a complex character going through a slow, painful redemption, go follow Wilbur’s storyline. If you want to watch a morally good man get beaten down by the world over and over again until he’s willing to go to even the most heinous lengths to secure his own safety and happiness, Quackity is right there. Let Dream be the guy who fucks shit up without remorse. Wilbur and Quackity can handle the emotional conflict and slow, painful spirals and roads to recovery, Dream can give us the explosions and villain speeches and the stomach-dropping terror whenever he appears on screen.

Anyway that’s my hot take, thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Hello...My name is Mohammad Dawood, I’m 18 years old, and I’m from Gaza.

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My family is fighting life to survive. The war has stolen our dreams in Gaza

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