@jedi-enthusiast

Okay so I’d like to apologize’

In reading this post and re-reading the original one, I have realized that I completely misunderstood & misconstrued what you were saying. And that the very detail of ‘your argument’ that I had issue with, was not the point you were actually making.

Beyond that though, I also found that in re-reading my comment, I found it very poorly phrased. And I can understand how it could be misconstrued as to carrying the implications that this post addresses. I was not I intending to say or imply in any capacity that ‘people shouldn’t call out antisemitic rhetoric in fandom’ or that “you shouldn’t compare real world discrimination to fictional stuff.”

I absolutely encourage recognizing and drawing those comparisons. Especially since Star Wars is art that was literally designed to reflect & respond to very real history, events, cultures, and people. Beyond that, all art created by people is responsive to our culture (and it’s biases), and trying to strip art of its real world context in an attempt to isolate it in fiction is not only wrong, but also impossible to actually do.

Antisemitism, like all forms of bigotry and discrimination is unfortunately present (through both conscience & unconscious bias) in every area of society, including fandom. Calling attention to it is essential to recognizing & dismantling (or at the very least disengaging from) systems of oppression and discrimination.

As you pointed out so clearly in this post, “[your] point in that post wasn’t- “since this is based off of a real world culture/religion, you can’t criticize it.”

And that is definitely what I had read and what I was attempting to caution against.

I think because the post started & ended with in your opinion, that “there aren't really any criticisms that can be made about the Jedi” I misunderstood that the Whole Post was not working to make that point. And failed to realize that each of the sections was not a building argument, but three completely separate points.

A while I do disagree with you that, “there aren't really any criticisms that can be made about the Jedi” —likely bc I accept Filoni & other non-Lucas canon — I absolutely agree with your point about antisemitism and bigoted rhetoric. We should always be aware and checking for our conscious and subconscious biases and making sure we are not perpetuating harm or spewing hateful rhetoric when handling fiction or anything else. (especially fiction that is reflective of minority groups)

So yeah, I am so fcking sorry. I completely misunderstood and then failed to communicate my own point effectively and ultimately blundered this entire thing.

Thank you for taking the time to put out this thoughtful response and for not allowing my mistake to go unchallenged.

@confusledqueer apologizes for not responding sooner, it’s been a busy couple days and—honestly—I forgot for a bit.

Moving on-

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Me equating some of the things that anti-Jedi people say to antisemitism and, sometimes, outright Nazi-esque rhetoric is not “wild” or “a stretch,” as you’re implying.

Justification of their genocide, denial that it actually was a genocide, a belief that the genocided party “caused” their own genocide, and a belief that they genocided party were wrong or “led astray” while one person was sent to make things right- (via either making them change their ways or outright destroying them/their culture) -are all things I’ve seen people say about the Jedi…

…but they’re also things that people have actually said about Jews.

Take the example I put in the post of someone denying that the Jedi Purge was actually a genocide, and how—by changing “Jedi” to “Judaism” and “Force-religions” to “Abrahamic Faiths”—it sounds verbatim to Holocaust denial.

Or, as another example, people claiming that the Jedi “kidnapped kids to brainwash them”…don’t you see how that sounds like Blood Libel?

So me pointing out that a lot of stuff anti-Jedi people say sounds like antisemitic rhetoric isn’t a stretch, not when a lot of it sounds verbatim to what people are saying with the rise of antisemitism and stuff they have said in the past.

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Now, I’m not Jewish, but it’s not just me, your neighborhood White Girl™️, who’s pointing this stuff out.

Actual Jewish people have pointed out the alarming similarities between anti-Jedi rhetoric and straight up antisemitism. So, if you wanna argue about- “you shouldn’t compare real world discrimination to fictional stuff” -then you should probably take that into account.

Go ahead and try telling Jewish Star Wars fans to stop calling out antisemitic rhetoric in the fandom, I’m sure that’ll go down real well.

I also find it hilarious that you’re telling me to be careful about the rhetoric I use in a thread about how I shouldn’t point out that some of the rhetoric other people spout is basically antisemitism rebranded.

And my point in that post wasn’t- “since this is based off of a real world culture/religion, you can’t criticize it.”

My point was- “since this is based off of a real world culture/religion then you need to be careful about how you criticize it, otherwise you might unconsciously be spouting bigoted beliefs and antisemitic rhetoric because you don’t recognize that that’s what it is because you’re saying it about a fictional culture.”

By all means, I get that some people just don’t like the Jedi, that’s their prerogative and we all have our own tastes.

Criticize them, if you feel like it, but don’t go around spouting rebranded antisemitism to do it. I’m sure you can come up with plenty of things to complain about them for without doing so.

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Now, I can understand why you might be worried about the slippery slope from this to shit like actual censorship—which, I think we can all agree, is a bad thing. Or how you might think criticizing this could lead to the whole “fandom purity” debate.

My thing is, it all comes down to does it actually harm people?

Perpetuating harmful stereotypes via saying stuff like the Jewish based characters “steal children,” or “lost their way,” or “they caused/deserved their genocide”—that does cause actual harm.

Think about why the “angry black man” stereotype or the “cheating bisexual” stereotype are bad and people- (rightly) -push back against them. It’s the same thing here.

Shipping a problematic ship, calling a fictional serial killer “babygirl,” writing about dark topics*, headcanoning characters as gay or trans…none of that is actively harming people.

(*obviously when writing about dark topics you should tag appropriately so people can avoid triggers, but that’s another topic for another day)

That’s the difference.

And, for the record, I think letting people spout bigotry just because they’re saying it about something fictional is the more dangerous mindset than calling it out.